Stronger on the Inside: Mental Toughness in the Trades
WorkReady Podcast Episode 7
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Speakers
Hayley Booker | Soma Clinical Counseling
Dr. Kevin Rindal | Vimocity
Resources- What Happened to You? – Oprah Winfrey & Dr. Bruce Perry
- The Body Keeps the Score – Bessel van der Kolk, MD
- Atlas of the Heart – Brené Brown
- When the Body Says No – Dr. Gabor Maté
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View The TranscriptGrowing up with a dad in the line trades, Haley Booker saw firsthand how the job took a toll at home. We are experiencing right now like just an unprecedented level of mental health in the trades. Asking for help doesn't make you weak.In fact, it makes you a lot stronger.
As a registered clinical counselor, she's on the front lines bringing mental health conversations to crews, storm teams, and the toughest rooms you can imagine. As humans, we just need to see that it's possible for things to be different. Mental health sounds big and scary. Mental health support sounds big and scary. Make it small. Two steps forward, one step back. You're still going forward. This is the WorkReady Podcast.At the end of the day, it's not just about getting through another shift. It's about having enough left in the tank for your family and building a career that lasts. That's why we created the Work Ready Podcast. If that's the kind of life you're working towards, subscribe and walk this journey with us. Every episode is one more step towards retiring strong, not broken.Hello and welcome to the Work Ready Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kevin Rindal. So happy to be joined today by Hayley Booker. Haley, welcome to the show. You have such an interesting background, both from a clinical perspective and then just from growing up with a dad in the trades and so I'm really excited about this conversation. I think there's so much that our listeners will gain from it. So Haley, thanks forjoining us.Thanks for having me. As you mentioned, I'm a registered clinical counselor on the Northshore in in BC. Um I have my own practice here that primarily takes up most of my time and when I'm not doing that I am doing speakingengagements for mental health in lines primarily um as well as other trades. Soa lot of the time I am doing whether it's podcasts or I'm doing also um coming into different organizations and companies to talk about how to first normalize mental health and mental health illnesses as well as um justhaving that space and making it a little bit more accessible for for crew members, workers, frontline, whatever the case may be.Yeah, that's so awesome. And your dad was in the line trade for I mean mostof his career and so you grew up in this. Can you tell us a little more about that?
Yeah, so dad was um he was a power line technician for oh god since I was born like since I was little. He was a lot of my memories of that was him on call. Um one of the big ones was a big ice storm. That would have been early 90s. I remember that one. He was gone for that. Um, so he was he was on the lines and I was always just thinking back it always like makes me so happy to think about because it's nostalgia at itsfinest. He's kind of he was my hero. He was my superhero. I remember he would come into the school boards and I remember he came into our school to talk about Hydro and they always had the pickle that lit up and all the different stuff and it was pretty cool having him as that. Mind you, he was away at times. Um but when he came home he was always present. Fast forward to probably my teens, he switched roles into more supervisory role and that was definitely like a different experience. He was home more but I would say mentally so physically he was home mentally he was I thinkelsewhere because of the job and the the things that came with it. And so I definitely noticed that shift. And I would say that would have been I'm kind of just jumping right in here, Kevin. That was just cuz I work in mental health. That was definitely a different point in my relationship with him because he was physically there, but mentally I could tell he was like not fully present at times just because of everything going on. So he's tired about that. Yeah. Have you talked to him? Have you talked to him about that? and just like what was it that was consuming his mind because I think if the story goes that was when he moved much more into like a supervisor role in management. Yeah, we've definitely had those talks.I would say we've had those talks like now more so. Umlooking back I think when when when I began working in the field of mental health so um definitely in my early 20sall the way into my late 20s we would talk more cuz he was still working at the time. He's retired now.we would talk about the struggles he was having with um like crew members like just if they were struggling withsomething um conflict, communication issues, all that stuff. So at this stagein my life, I can understand like why he was or the way he was or what washappening that was kind of impacting the way he showed up as as a dad. But when you're a teen and you've hadyour your your person um your hero, so tospeak, go from being so present and with you, you know, jumping on the trampoline, uh making forts, all thatstuff, to then being home for dinner nine times out of 10, butthe engagement was different. He was still there, but it was just different. Um,and I would give even just an extra just to give him devil's advocate here is I was going through a lot of that timewith my own mental health. So I think looking back he was also dealing with umissues at work along with coming home to me. Yeah. So he got the feel of the whammy.And what got you into mental health and counseling?O, that's a loaded question. Um, we're we're here all day. Stop.Yeah. Right. Looking back through my teens or even I would say even my twins, like that 10, 11, 12 stage, I was really strugglingwith my mood. Um, looking back, I could see it was depression and anxiety.And so, you know, going through all that and then also, you know, being a a kidand going to school and having, you know, your peer pressure and and you're just navigating peers and things likethat. It was a really hard experience for me. And so,fast forward a little bit, I developed an eating disorder. I was really struggling with that all through myteens. Um, and it wasn't until I was like 16, 17, Iended up going into treatment. Um, and this is whenI think the big storm started was my dad was navigating a lot at work. So, a lotof issues at work. Um, and then he would drive. So, my gym from a small town, um,we he would drive over an hour to come see me in the hospital, sit with mefrom, you know, let's say he's done work at 4, he'd get there at 5:30, sit with me till 7:00 8 at night listening to mescream, yell, be so upset that I'm there just to give me a hug and a kiss, say Ilove you, go go go home, go to sleep, and do it all over again the next day. And that went on for months. Um,so that experience when I got out of treatment, I knew Ialways wanted to work in some form of mental health. I didn't know what exactly. And I think the avenues back then were a little bit trickier. Itwasn't so set of like, okay, you do your degree, you do your masters, and then, you know, you can be a therapist. It wasvery much like, well, I want to work with teens. I kind of want to work with kids who've been through the same thing as me, but I don't know what that lookslike. And so I kind of took the avenue of um child and youth work andlong story short, I went I just applied. I wanted out of my small town like sobad. I didn't even know what I was applying to. I just wanted out. Um surprisingly enough, I don't know whythey even accepted me because I did horrible in high school. Um I got in inToronto and I was I was gone like that. I wanted out. Funny enough, I reallyliked it and I was like, "Oh, this is something like that I'm kind of into andthis is what meets what kind of I've been wanting to work on." Um,so I did the program, I did really, really well. And then it was, okay, what's the next step? And so then I didmy degree, same thing in child and youth, but I didn't really know how to become a therapist. It was kind of like, okay, how do I get to that part? And soI was in my degree and unfortunately I I relapsed and so I ended up moving backhome. And during that time I spent a lot of time in and out of treatment living with my parents which is very differentwhen you're in your you know your mid20s at that time. The probably the best part about allthat was I had some I had experience and I had post-secaryknowledge on kind of the sciences to what was going on for me. So, and my dad will even evensay this, you know, he was very fortunate to have me as his daughter to be like, "Hey, this is what I'm going through and this is what's happening."Um, while also still going through it myself. And I always tell parents like that's not a common thing, right? tohave have a kiddo to be like, "Hey, you know, I'm struggling. This is kind of what's going on inside from a mentalhealth standpoint." And then also like struggling themselves. So, I was kind of doing two jobs at once. Um, fortunately,I recovered and did long-term therapy, which is like what got me to be like, "Okay, this is the route I want to go."And so, I applied and I did my masters. And next thing you know, I got so busyand started doing what I love to do. Um, but I think at the end of the day,Kevin, a big part of it was, you know, my own therapist was a big reason why I wanted to get into the field ofcounseling, my own experiences of mental health. And then also, there was so much lack of support. Like, we drove hours umto go get support. I think we would do hour and a half, sometimes two hours allthe way to Toronto uh twice a week just right after my mom was done work, hit rush hour and go straight there just tohave group group therapy just for some support. With Vimosity utility leaders arecutting injuries by up to 50%. Keeping crews safer, empowering stronger operational readiness. Teams stayengaged. Your safety impact skills across every work group and you gain the insights to prevent serious injuriesbefore they happen. Vumasi delivers expert content, seamless deployment tools, and real-time risk data from oneworkforce readiness platform. Learn more at vumasi.com.Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think that, you know, you and I have spoken at different times about howmuch that shaped you from an empathy and just an understanding perspective. And what's so cool now is you work with, Imean, people like troubled youth all the way to like gang members, Hell's Angels,I mean people in the trades, like just such a broad swath of people. But uh theone thing that stands out in our conversations is just that at the end of the day like we're all human beings andthere are so many similar struggles and often times it comes back to fear. It comes back to previous life experienceor um identity issues. What are some of the similarities that you see across like you know all those differentgroups? We call them groups but I mean again we're we have all the same things biologically that cause us to tick.Yeah. So, you know, my experience, I've worked with um gang youth. I've worked with um high-risk youth. I've workedwith um you know, gang adults, so helping with um getting people out ofgang life. And so, that's all the way like I've you and I have chatted all the way from Hell's Angels and um thingslike that. And at the end of the day, you know,it really comes down to this need for belonging and identity. And I think, you know, when we look at every individual,whether they're in gang life, whether they're, you know, um, alignment, whether they're in frontline work, wecrave a place where we feel accepted. And for some that's community, for others it's it's gang life, it's a crew,it's a brotherhood. Um, we all desire to feel safe. And sorecognition, respect, we all carry unprocessed pain at timesand how we cope can vary, but we all try to find a way to cope. So whether that'sexcessively working, going to the gym like very much intensively, um engagingin substance use, like we all try to find a way to cope. It just looks different. And so I always say to any ofmy clients, especially when working with um trades or front line, at the end ofthe day, you know, whether you're wearing a hard hat, whether you're wearing a patch, a uniform,you're human first. And we all wrestle with this fear, this desire forbelonging, this need to be seen, this need to be heard. and the way we cope might look different, but underneaththe heart's the same. And that's really what it comes down to. Yeah, that's so good. We're going tocontinue down this thread here in a second, but before we leave this, I canimagine that there are moms and dads listening to uh this podcast and theyhave kids who are teens or tween and, you know, going through the some of those big like life moments andtransitions and struggles like what would you say to those parents who may be experiencing, you know, adisconnection or watching their child struggle? like what are some of the resources that you now sitting in theseat as a you know a counselor who's who's helping to guidethem what would you say given your experience and what you seeyou know what at the end of the day just listen likeyes we want to fix like when it's our kiddos we want to fix we want them not to feel this way um whether they'reengaging in, you know, behaviors that you're you're not a fan of or you're worried about their mental health or,you know, they're navigating anxiety, depression, whatever the case is,first and foremost, listen like without judgment. And I know that can be hard cuz it's it's your child at the end ofthe day. But when you create that space for them to be heard and not just heard, but truly truly feel seen,that is at the base. Next is, you know, a lot of my parentscome in, they're stressed out, they're frustrated, all these things. And and there's a disconnect right in between the relationship between the two. And Ialways tell my parents like take yourself back to that age, whether it was 13, 15, 16, like not just thinkabout it, but truly take yourself back there. I tell all my kiddos, you guyshave it harder than than I did. and and you have, you know, they they have itharder than you did. And so, every generation is different, but they have things that we we don't have. We didn'thave like excessive technology like right at our fingertips. Um, you know, that pure pressure and we can easily sayto to kids, you know, don't do this or like, you know, don't fall for peer pressure. But it's a lot harder than that. And we know that deep down we do.So take yourself back to that moment and remind yourself liketheir world looks like this. They don't have the wisdom, you know, the years ofexperience, the the the moments to like look back and be like, "Oh, that was so silly." Like, you know,I shouldn't have done that or you know, like it's not it's not a bad thing to ask for help or to say like this is whatI'm struggling with. In that moment, though, it's hard for them like in the present moment. So my two things likealways take away is like listen truly make space and listen and put yourself in their shoes. Like truly put yourselfin their shoes. That's so so helpful. Thank you for that. And I'm sure that we'll get somesome more questions on that after we post this. But um and we'll definitely provide your contact information becauseI'm sure you know that's something that's always top of mind for people. But let's now shift back to um yourinteraction with your dad cuz he came from a different generation where youknow no one really talked about emotions. No one talked about mental health in the trades and what what wasit like then and maybe now contrast that to some of the things that you're seeing now in terms of these conversationsbeing a part of work or just even acknowledged. Yeah. So something that sticks out rightwhen you right when you say that Kevin something that sticks out is when I was I would sayprobably 14 15 um I remember sitting at the table. So, Ilove this for our family is that we always had dinner together. Like, it was just a thing. And so, funny enough, dadwas at one end, I was at the other. And we were talking and I mentioned how Iwas struggling. And I said, "I think I'm I think I'm struggling with depression. Like, I think I'm depressed."And I remember he got so mad. and he was frustrated and he didn'tunderstand like you know and I remember him saying something along the lines of like you know like I've given youeverything like you're you have everything you need like I don't understand you have a good life and soyou know take yourself back to that like that child moment like that's hard tohear like you're looking for support and that's not what you're getting but from a standpoint of where I am likehe didn't have the tools. He didn't have the resources. And back then,and even today, but but back then, like if it wasn't broke, if he couldn't visually see that I had a broken bone orlike I was hurting physically, it's it was a hard concept to grapple with. Andmind you, he was working as a power line. Like he was he was on the line. So he was with the crew wherethat you know that mindset of like toughen up be strong don't show emotionswas very very present and so you know when I think of speaking engagements oreven just going into um organizations or companies and talking about you knowmental health there's a there's a there's a big difference like there'sthere's definitely a spectrum So often times my my younger ones, so early 20s all the way to like late 20s, theythey'll pipe in. Now mind you, I always set the tone of like I am going to be vulnerable. I'm going to be sharing mystories in this presentation. All I ask for is respect for myvulnerability and I will give you the same. And and that really sets the tone um for the presentation. And what'sfunny enough, I could think back to so many times where I've got these, you know, gentlemen who are in their 50s or60s who are about to retire or even just in their late 40s who they've got thisthis stigma, this belief around mental health and and mental illness andstruggling. and they really make it vocalized during our session or during ourpresentation. And not only does that impact people to to speak up, butthey're the ones that really will challenge me. And so it's interestingthat, you know, I'll come back the following year, let's say, or 6 months, and the guard comes down a little bit,and then I'll come back again, and the guard comes down a little bit more. And so that's the big like difference interms of those generations along with I think the younger generations like they reallyyou know after after I present like they're the ones coming up to me after and I always say to anybody when youbring me in like give me time after because I guarantee I'm going to do like mini sessions is what ends up happening.Um, but they're the ones that feel safe to do so. And so I really see that as thedifference is like the just the attitude they bring into into those sessions orinto those presentations. Tell us about like one of the first times that you did speak to a group oftrades people cuz I I believe it was actually at the company that your dad works for and yeah um he was a little bit nervous at first.Oh, he was so nervous. I remember um my mom and I had a good talk with him. Mymom kind of said like she knows her stuff. Like she can hold her own. And I get it. I'm his daughter. Like it'shard. He knows how they are. He works with them. Like he sees them for for how they can be. Um mind you, I've workedwith gang youth and troubled, you know, youth that have had troubled moments. Umand they they're they're tough cookies to deal with at times. And so, you know, going in my dad was quite I could tellhe was nervous and wanted them to be respectful. And so, you know, you got the ones that wear their sunglasses,won't take them off during um they're on their phones in the back. And so,I am the type of person who is going to go I I walk during the presentation. Idon't stand up front like I am going to the back. I'm introducing myself. I am bringing you forward. And so I'll neverforget the first time I had this this one gentleman who debated me on so much,but he was engaged. And it wasn't just a debate. He actually listened too. Likewe were we were really connecting in that way. And so I always say bring your beliefs, bringyour you know your beliefs or your biases forward. But what I ask for you is to getcomfortable with maybe being a little bit uncomfortable during the session because I'm going to challenge you and you're going to challenge me and that'show we learn. It's a dialogue. And so looking back it went it went wonderfulbut it was terrifying. I will admit it's especially when your dad's in the room and then you know fast forward he'salways like wanting to come to them and I'm like no you can't. I can have my dadthere for all of them. So I love that. What are the things thatyou find are the common hook when you connect with these different groups like the the topic or you know the commonthing that people in the trades tend to like really resonate with and they're like oh man I'm I'm dealing with that orlet's lean into this topic a little bit more. That's a good one. I would saythinking about when I present, I often bring in case studies of individuals Ihave worked with um that are similar into the trades and that that definitely hits home for them a little bit morebecause it it resonates with them. It's not just somebody who's you know working in I don't know HR or something likethey they are on the lines or the front line or whatever the case may be. Another one is my stories. So I am veryvery open about my experiences of an eating disorder, of trauma, depression, anxiety, like the wholegist. And I use myself as a case study and I'll ask them questions. Okay, whydo you think I was acting this way? Like why do you think this was happening at that time? And they'll they'll throwanswers out there and I'm like, it doesn't hurt my feelings. Like I want you to get creative and use that part of your brain. Um, a big part for the andit's primarily the guys that I work with is they love science. Like I can come inand talk about mental health, but if I don't have that, you know, biocschosocial,like the the physiology, the science, neuroscience behind it, they don't really care. So often times I reallystart the base with the science of, you know, the brain, why this is happening, what this looks like. that we do someactivities and they love activities. They all all line guys and trades, theyneed to be moving. So, I need to keep them busy and that that creates that connection of like, okay, the work andwhat they're learning as well as like putting their hands into it and kind of figuring out how this all works. That isprobably the biggest one I see that helps them go, oh, I get why this is happening.Can you give us an example of that? like one of those aha moments where they experience that cuz II mean we are experiencing right now like just an unprecedented level of mental health in the trades like recordunfortunately I mean suicides are so high drug overdoses opioid use things like thatand so like I think this is one of those silent things and again you you mentioned if it's not broke if I can'tsee something physical physically wrong it often just gets shuffled But, uh, Imean, the more that I'm in this world, the more I realize like there are just so many people that are struggling froma mental standpoint. And so, like, I think being able to have these practical conversations are so powerful. Can youshare some of those things, the examples that you give? Yeah. So, one of them that comes to mindis um, a most recent conversation, actually, it's probably a year ago now,was around substance use. And we see a lot of that, right? We see a lot of sub substance use and abuse happening,whether it's um alcohol, whether it's um marijuana use, cocaine, uh painmedication, things like that. So, I first start off with talking about the brain and what each part does. And Ibring in a lot of Play-Doh and they get to make the brain. And it's a great experience because yes, it's funny. Andalso, um the guys love sweets and treatsand things. So they've they've got stuff that they're like working towards and that's how I kind of keep them occupied. And so they they figure out the brainand they learn the brain from just a science model. And then we get into, you know, what does these substances do?What is like the dopamine part doing? You know, when you're coming home on a Friday and then you're having beers allweekend, you're smoking weed. You know, maybe you're partying a little bit more. You're using cocaine. How does thatimpact the next day or even the day after? And what's so beautiful aboutthat is not only is it the group of guys that like are there, it's also, you know, meand them and and kind of working together. We create this beautiful space of hours spent together where they willuse their own examples, you know, like I have these gentlemen who are in their 50s raising their hand and being like,"Okay, this is what I do on the weekend. So, how does that, you know, impact my brain?" And so I focus in on one personand they're, you know, they're learning from just me and them and we kind of, it's almost like everybody disappears inthat moment, but then you got all the other people in the room that are like, "Oh, okay." And so it's creating thatvulnerability that allows for them to be like, "Oh, so he's doing that and that's what'shappening. Oh, okay. Okay. So that's probably what's happening to me." And then it kind of creates this like dominoeffect where they all start talking and being like, "Oh, so is that why this happens?" Yeah. That's why, you know,you know, Monday you're tired, but Tuesday you have severe anxiety. You know, you drank all Saturday night, you wake up, Sunday is like hangover day,and then Monday you have really bad anxiety cuz it's like 2 days later or 3 days later, and then you kind of getafter you get over that hump, Thursday, you do it all again Friday. And they're like, "Ah, okay." So, it's really likethat aha science moment that kind of makes sense to them. Um,another one that comes to mind is, you know, when we talk about suicide and it's it'sa really heavy topic and so for some people they feel uncomfortable with it and I try to normalize it as much aspossible in the sense of suicidal ideation. um really creating like a sense of like it'sit's not something we have to hush hush because I really truly believe like mental illness grows in secrecy.And so something that's an aha moment for them is I worked with a gentleman who unfortunately died by suicide thatworked in um that worked in the trades in lines and it was because of anaccident that occurred on the lines that he felt he was um at fault for and therewas no unfortunately there was not enough supports in place. maybe rightafter there was but not weeks and months later. And sowhen I share that story, it really hits them. And then bringing it back as likewhy do you think we we'll never know fully why, but what do you think waskind of the risk factors that kind of maybe impactedsuicidal ideation and the attempt and and suicide to occur? And so kind ofhaving those moments Those are such great examples. I want to drill intothat a little bit more on both of those examples that you gave. So let's say the example of that group who's talkingabout like you know maybe the drugs or the alcohol in that pattern that they fall into and they are able to sharethat and get it out on on their chest and it and it just in some realms I think it helps normalize and it itcreates a little bit of a bond there because people are like oh actually I'mexperiencing the same struggles but what are the practical applications like what do you teach people um you know in thosemoments that they can put into practice that might help them make better decisions or choose healthier behaviors.So I think I think there's there's a there's a few pieces. Soright away when you say that Kevin I think of you know howhow can there be like support and how can we complicate or impact like negatively impact our mental health atwork like I think it really comes down to that piece and so you know in whetherit's trades or frontline um you know crews teams like at the end of the day those are like the backbone of gettingthings done right like that you need to have that in order for things to get done. And that samestructure can either buffer stress or intensify it. And and that's kind of howI look at it. And so when you're working as a team, like built-in support systemsare huge. Um, you know, crews often feel like a second family. You are with each other a lot. Like when you're on theroad or or stormchasing, like you're with them more than you are with your wife or your, you know, your partner or your kids. So shared experiences,creating trust, belonging, having someone who gets it can reduce that isolation, you know, having those sharedburdens, like that's huge. High pressure tasks can feel less overwhelming. Um,when like we have responsibility that's really distributed. Um, when we havethat sense of connection, you know, teammates or other members can like step in when someone's physically oremotionally stretched. And often times we don't do that in society. Like we really don'tjump in and be like, "Hey, you know what? You're struggling." Or someone says, "You know, I've got a lot on my plate." And they're like, "You're struggling. I got you. We don't see thatoften." But if we were to do that, we would have a solid foundation.So these are some things that like I think of that that can be a part of it. And like that is where like identity andpride really come in. So when we look at crews, like having strong bonds within acrew, um we know it boosts morale. We know it boosts loyalty um and meaning inthe work. We know that like a sense of purpose can really come from contributing to something bigger. Ioften use the example I was at a speaking engagement a while ago and umfor some reason nine times out of 10 there's a lot of companies and crewsthat you know there's like imshment happening like they're coming together.um there's a lot of conflict just personality is not not aligning and thatreally impacts the work that you do right like your ego and not in the sense of havinga big ego but like that piece of you gets in the way to get the work done and and we see it all the time where youknow work doesn't get done properly risks happen because of personality is not driving and we can't put that stuff aside and see each other as like afamily so so that's something I see um we'retogether a lot, right? So, like co-workers or crews, like they often notice first if someone's struggling,like they're going to notice quicker than probably your partner because you're with each other the most. Um,and when you have that supportive team, like it can really it can really encourage like those helpseeking kind ofbehaviors before um issues begin to escalate. And like that's a big one Isee is like how do we how can we notice first? What do we do first? And likethat's the big one I see is like, okay, like sure, somebody's struggling, but like what do I do? Yeah.And yeah, what does somebody do? Because it is it is interesting when you work with someone that much, you notice thethe smallest changes in behavior. You you can tell when somebody's head's not in the game. And so what does someone doin that situation? So I think,okay, I think first and foremost, I think it's important to break it down. So before you look at what can somebodydo to to kind of like support someone, I think it comes down to first like if you are the person struggling.Yeah. So for the worker or like the the whoever you are struggling likemy first thing that I truly believe in is normalizing it. Right. So like remind yourself that everyone has limits. Weall have limits. Asking for help doesn't make you weak. In fact, it makes you a lot stronger. Um,you know, a quick check-in with with a co-orker or someone that you trust or a supervisor is the first step. So, withmy dad specifically, you know, some of the guys really trusted him. You know,my dad has said, "I've never had a grown man come into my room, you know, balling his eyes out, having a panic attack oran anxiety attack." And I remember telling my dad like, "That's vulnerability." Like, you you are thatsafe space for them. Like not only is that hard for you, you're like, "Oh my god, I've never dealt with this before,but take a moment and like take a step back and realize like you're their safe space." Like for them to be able to dothat, that says a lot. So if you're the person struggling, like find that person that's your person that you feel you canlet your guard down and say, "Hey, like I'm feeling overwhelmed or this is what's going on."Another thing is is when you are, you know, going to somebody to talk about umwhat's kind of bothering you, try to use really really concrete language.So focus on what's happening to you rather than kind of like that generalizedum conversation or self-criticism. So saying, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I need a break. Um I'mdealing with this and I need some support. like really really being concrete about it.Another thing is have a plan. So know what supports are available within your work. So every company I've ever wentand spoke to, I always ask them before I start, what's your mental health program or plan? Do you have EAP? Do you have asafety officer, a rep, mental health professional? Um what are your benefits like? And I'm like if you Okay, what arethey? Perfect. Give them to me. I want to read them and see what they are because we have them but a lot of thetimes people don't know what they are and when you're in that space you don't know where to look. It's so exhaustingto find something. So that's kind of where I start like that's the the backbone of it all. Next I would say islike when it's when you are whether you are a crew leader, aco-orker or somebody in that it's so important to create a safeenvironment. So really lead by example and I know that's so easy to say butlike try to be vulnerable. So share share openly about your stress, right?So like or fatigue or asking for help yourself. create those check-ins regularly being like, "Oh, how howeverhow is everybody holding up um at the start or the end of the shift that really signals like, okay, your mentalhealth matters." Um validate, validate, validate,acknowledge and validate. Listen without judgment, you know, thank them for sharing.Really validate like, you know, that makes sense why, you know, you're feeling that given what you're dealingwith. um provide options. Yes, you can validate, but then it'sokay. What do what do we do? So, make it clear what support is available andreally emphasize that seeking help confidential. I always say, you know, there's so much shame and stigma aroundmental health and getting support in the trades, frontline work.making it known that it's confidential is going to create that safe space and just normalize, you know, breaks andtimeouts and reinforce that taking care of your mental state is just as important as physical safety. Like atthe end of the day, asking for help, I always say to the guys, asking for help is like flagging a hazard on a job,right? It keeps you and everyone around you safe. So, just like we wouldn't ignore, you know, a broken ladder, abroken tool, we shouldn't ignore our mental health. Yeah, and even talking about yourphysical safety and the safety of the rest of your team, like when your head's not in the game, it does put everythingat risk because you have to be on, especially when you're working in those high-risisk environments. And so, yeah,so so important. And I know that one of the things that we talk a lot about is like that prejob brief is such animportant time uh before you start work. And so being able to have that space andoften times we throw out terms like psychological safety, but it's essentially what you're just talking about of like creating that safe spacefor people to raise their hand and say, you know what, like I'm I don't think I'm in a space where I can do this typeof work today. And um creating that environment definitely does increase your safety uh as a team.So going on to just talk about let'suh pull on that thread a little bit more about suicide because I do think it is it's a big um topic. So workplaceinjuries that lead to death the rate is currently 3.5deaths per 100,000 workers. Um but suicide um amongst uh you know theworkforce right now is 56. So it's almost like a 19fold increase compared to deaths that happenjust due to to jobs. And so it just I think highlights how impactful this is.And so going back to that example that that you gave of um that individual whofelt guilty because um of a potential you know error that he made that led toanother injury. But what would you say to to, you know, folks who maybe havethat guilt or maybe they've even experienced like one of their own brothers or sisters who uh took theirown life and, you know, they're dealing with that or maybe they experienced um someone on their crew that that diedduring uh work and they're experiencing that grief or that heaviness.First and foremost, it it breaks my heart to say, but likeyou're not alone. And grief grief is is inevitable, right? Like it's it's a partof life. And so get support. Likewhen you're navigating that, it's really hard to understand, especially if you're someone who who struggles to understandlike suicide or suicidal ideation and you have your own biases towards it.Having someone to kind of bounce your thoughts with is really important. So whether that's a therapist, whetherthat is somebody at work, umwhen you lose someone to suicide, and unfortunately, you know, I think a lotof us know somebody who's who's died by suicide, it's it's a hard one to grapplewith because it wasn't an accident or it wasn't, you know, old age or something like that.There there's a lot underneath of all that. And so I think it's it's hard for some people to wrap their head around.So having having someone to talk to and remind yourself that likeit is not your fault if if somebody has died by suicide andyou feel like you were um a part of that reason or whatever the case may be. And I think you know just coming back tolike when someone shares suicidal ideiation now mind you like we are in trades it'snot as common to like share openly butif someone brings it up even in a joking manner like take it seriously. Always assume the risk is real. I always saythat just assume the risk is real. Um, I would rather someone be mad at me forgoing an extra step and then being upset because I care for their safety than notdoing something just because I don't know what to do and I don't want to upset somebody.If someone brings it up, stay calm, stay present. I know that's hard to do. Don'tpanic. Your presence matters, right? So, listen without judgment. Let them talk.you know, acknowledge feelings, avoid argue, arguing, avoid minimizing, right? Oftentimes, especially in trades, weminimize. Hey, yeah, I get it. You know, it's tough. You're just gonna, you know, you'll get through it. Don't worry. Yes,that sounds encouraging, but it's also quite minimizing. Another is ask direct questions. That isthe hardest thing to do. As a therapist, I'm used to it. I get that. But it'sreally, really important to ask those direct questions. You know, are you thinking about ending your life? Are youthinking about killing yourself? It doesn't make it more likely. It actually clarifies the risk,get help immediately. You know, contact somebody right away. Um, offer them crisis lines, tell someone right away.If it's immediate risk, don't leave them alone. You know, seek emergency services, follow up, stay in touch.It sounds like a lot and it's like, "Oh my god, I got to do all this." And like that puts a lot on you. It's like, "Oh my goodness, like I'm taking this role."But it's but simplify it. Stay present. Listen without judgment. Ask directquestions. Go get help. And I know this is a heavy topic andwe're not going to try to solve everything on this call, but what I will do is in the show notes is Haley. I knowthat you have some great resources for that. So, we'll add those in the show notes. Um, I just want to give a shoutout to an organization that we work closely with called Union Care Solutions, Jenny Lavin, and she does alot with like mental first aid. Um, they call them schism groups. And so, there'sso many resources out there now. And so, we'll definitely post some of that because you shouldn't feel like you haveto navigate this all on your own and it's your responsibility to to do this. But definitely if if you're in aposition of leadership or if you're on a team, um, just educating yourself. To me, if it's it's just like knowing CPRand AD um first aid, it's it's being able to have those skills and theconfidence when you encounter a situation, you at least know that you could help uhnavigate in that those critical moments. So, we'll definitely uh post some of those resources here because I think Imean we all need to be working on it together. Uh, one of the examples that I've heardyou give and I think that this goes back to some of the things that we've talked about is I think you called it thestress bucket or it's it's like a a cup that's overflowing and you you give thatexample and it's a pretty hands-on exercise that you do with your group. Can can you share that and maybe help usvisualize what that is and and how we can view all the different buckets inour life that tend to start to get filled and how we can manage that. Yeah.So, first and foremost, I think organizations and companies hate when I bring all the water in because they knowit's not it's going to be a mess. I always tell them like, "Make sure you got the janitors, the cleaners ready."Um, so something I do is I get everybody to I give them a cup, okay? And theyhave a water bottle. And so within your cup, I will bring up things. Okay.First and foremost, do you have a family? Yep. Are you in a relationship? Okay. Where do you feel like that's atright now? Put some water in your cup. That takes a big part of your life. Work. How much does that take up in yourlife? Okay. Keeps going. Um, another one is, you know, have youengaged in your hobbies or your your things that you enjoy? Nine times out of 10, they're like, "No, I haven't hadtime." Okay, put water in your cup. Another one. Okay. Have you connectedwith friends lately? No, I've been too busy. Okay, put that in the cup. We kind of go through all the things that arekind of overfilling their cup right now. I hear it a lot where they're like, "Haley, I am at the brim." I'm like,"That sucks. Keep going." Like, this is your life. And so, you know, a lot ofthem it's overflowing. And then I'll say to them, okay, have you, you know, have you done any umhave you played any sports this week? And some are like, yeah, I went to hockey. Okay. Did that feel good? Yeah,I got some stress out. I got to see my buddies, you know, hang out, take a sip of water. Okay, we're watching it godown and up. And often times, um, you'll hear that that saying of like, oh, youknow, what do you do to fill up your cup? I kind of do it the opposite way, like what is overflowing your cup? So, Ialways tell the guys, it's almost like it's almost like a tin bucket. We got to put holes in our in our tin bucket tohelp it from overflowing. So, what are those for you? And and you and I have talked about like that's your triage,right? That's your, you know, eat, sleep, and movement. Those are yourthree main ones and then we can build from there. Yeah, let's talk about it. I love that.So, let's talk about eat, sleep, and movement. How those are three, you know, very practical things and andwhy should people care about that? The you know,they're they're just so important. Like I always say they are um I call ittriage because they are the first like small first steps right so if somebodycomes in um and they're burnt out even thinking about you know just fixing alldifferent parts of their life can feel so overwhelming and instead of tackling like all the emotional stuff at once wecan start with manageable steps. So, improving sleep, carving out a break ormovement, um naming what's going on, things like that. But when I break it down to those three pieces, we know thatsleep is like it's so important, especially if you struggle with anxiety or are at risk for depression orsubstance use is happening. Like sleep is crucial. So, sleep restores thebrain, right? It regulates our emotions. Um sleep is the body's it's its resetbutton, right? Without it, mood regulation, concentration, stress tolerance, they all plummet. Next ispoor sleep. You know, we know that it increases the risk of anxiety. It increases the risk of depression,irritability. It even increases the risk of physical injury, especially, youknow, if you're working in construction or utility jobs. How many of us have not gotten a good night's sleep and you knowwe're bumping into things the next day or we're forgetting things like it's there. Deep sleep helps the brainprocess emotions and recover from stress. So it really makes it central to resilience. So anytime somebody has aheavy session with me, I'm like, "Okay, sleep's going to be super super important tonight."Next is nutrition and eating. How many of the guys and I've talked to them. I'm like, "How many of you guys are drinkingcoffee all day? you know, eating on the road, things like that. Food fuels thebody and it stabilizes mood. Hands down. Food is literally the brain's it's itsfuel source, right? So, skipping meals, relying on high sugars, caffeine, um undereating, it can worsen mood swings,right? We talk about being hangry. It creates fatigue, foggy thinking. Um whenwe have those balanced meals, we have lots of protein, the complex carbs, um the healthy fats, it really helps tostabilize blood sugar, right? Which is going to reduce your irritability and improve your focus.Good nutrition helps the body heal from from also physical strain and stress. We knowthis. So, I always say to anybody I'm working with, like, think about what you're eating. No shame. No shame atall. This isn't a diet. This isn't taking things out or putting things in per se. This is just looking at, okay,like what does a typical day look like. Okay, I have, you know, four or five cups of coffee and I eat probably aroundthree. Okay, so your body's cortisol is up all day and then you come down from thecrash. A lot of the times this correlates with sleep. So some of my guys are like, I can't sleep. I can'tsleep. And I'm like, okay, when's your last coffee? Well, it's around like 2:00. I'm done work at 4:00. I'm like,it has a long shelf life in the body. That's why. So, I always say to any of my guys, you're not having coffee likeafter after two. And definitely I would love before 12, like in a perfect world. So, that's those are some big ones thatI always have them do. Movement and exercise and activity. II get it. I sit all day with people. a lot of the, you know, trades and frontline, they're on their feet all day. And so they're like, why would I want to move my body if I've been on my feet allday? I get it. But it's a different type of movement. So when we haveintentional, you know, intentional movement, it releases stress and itboosts the mood. We know this and I talk about dopamine with the guys a lot is like this is good dopamine, you know,regular movement. It releases endorphins, um, it releases dopamine, serotonin. Those are natural moodstabilizers. Physical activity is going to lower that stress hormone like cortisol um which we see uh like ninetimes out of 10 is really chronically elevated during burnout. Even light activity like going for a walk,stretching is a big one. I always say to the guys like stretch that it's going to really help regulateenergy and promote better sleep too. And soI'll say all these things and they're like, "Okay, but why are these like why are they the baseline then? Like why?" And I say like they're foundational,right? So without sleep, without fuel, without movement, the brain and body are are in constant survival mode is what itis. And so those three are all interconnected. So good sleep makes it easier to eat well.And movement, you know, improves sleep. Balanced eating stabilizes energy. So movement and rest possible. And they'reall controllable first steps. So unlike you know therapy or like that complextherapy work or big life changes, these daily habits give you know people justeven small tangible concrete wins that's going to help um just build momentum.Yeah, that's so good. There have been studies that show that even just light exercise, I mean, we're talking aboutlike 15 to 20 minutes of a light walk, being outside, being in nature, likealmost has a similar effect to like um some of the medication uh impacts that people experience. And so, yeah. No, Ilove that. And when you think about the demands of a lot of the workforce, you're working a storm, you're up 18hours, you're probably drinking Monster Energy Jinx, you know, eating out of a 7-Eleven. um you know, fried food and uhsugar, all this stuff. And then yeah, and you are moving, but there's also alot of time in your truck. There's a lot of time in static positions while you're working maybe on a pole or in differentdifficult environments. And so, yeah, all these things definitely filter over into that mental health. So, such goodreminders. Uh what what are some additional practicalsteps? I think even beyond this, like I even think about there's great researchon breathing and breath work and it it sounds kind of wooy but it's like it itcan help you know lower your sympathetic drive and start to balance out your parasympathetic nervous system. We knowthat um you know spiritual practices and beliefs and faith can also help people.What are some of your thoughts on some of those other areas? So, I work from a sematic based uh lens,which really means um connecting mind and body together.Clients who know me, I'm really big on research, so it has to be backed up. Like, I know it sounds woowoo, but we weknow that there is um there's evidence and research on this.Breathing is so important, right? So, I'm not saying like I get it. I'm not saying, you know, you're going to sitthere in the grass during a shift and like go into, you know, Buddha pose and and do breath work, but what I say tothem is like some practical techniques that you can use on a job or even after work to to really like decompress toregulate your emotions and to relieve stress. One is micro breaks and that's even 2 minutes of stretching, steppingaway from the noise. I always tell my clients, is your tongue on the roof of your mouth? Bring it down. Okay? Checkyour jaw. unclench it, let it relax. Um, you know, roll out your shoulders and bring them down. Just those littlelittle tiny movements are going to be super important. I know you can't step away for long from work, but even justfor 30 seconds, like go inwards and go, "Okay." Okay. Am I clenching? Yep. Aremy shoulders up to my ears? Yep. Okay. Pull it down a little bit. And that's just those little reminders.After work transition rituals are so important. Like I truly believe havingrituals after work and even before bed are super super important not only for the brain and body but just even um tocreate that sense of you know routine structure and just letting your brainand body know like hey it's time to to relax. So one I often talk about isphysical reset. So what that is is you know a quick walk shower change of clothes to signal your body you're offthe clock. How many of those guys I know they come home and they're sitting in their clothes. They go to their shop andthey're in their clothes till, you know, 7 8 at night. No, take them off. If youdon't have time to shower, put on, you know, put on some sweats and a t-shirt. It's signaling to your body you're offthe clock. You're done. You're home. That's a big one. It sounds so silly, but it's it's a really easy one to do.Next is, you know, active release. So sports, gym, yard work to burn off thattension is going to be important. I get you don't want to do it right when you get home, but finding something to do.So something I absolutely loved was when my dad would come home, he'd come and jump on the trampoline with us. It'sexercise, yes, but he's out, he's moving his body, he's with us, he's having fun.It signals to us, dad's home, dad's present, he's off the clock. And thatalso signals to his brain, hey, I'm off the clock. I'm with my kids. We're on the trampoline.Um, quick recovery. That's huge. You know, music, breathing, journaling, mindful hobbies. I always say to theguys like, "What are your hobbies?" You know, fishing, woodworking, um, do you go hunting, things like that? Set thoseup throughout um, the month is what I typically say. How fast did hasSeptember went? Right? It's went so quick. Have you done anything? No, not really. Okay. So, for October, I wantyou to think about, okay, I've got this time. I'm going to go fishing on this day, and I'm going to do this on thisday. Having a few things that you look forward to are going to be really, really helpful for your body and brainto know, okay, this is some techniques we're doing to help decompress.Those are such great examples, and it's so practical. Like, I love the example of just changing your clothes when youget home or jumping on the trampoline. It it just it's not only signals to yourself but to everyone else that thatyou're present and that um you're off the clock. I I love that.Um what are some maybe some techniques that you specialize in uh if somebody islike, you know, this is great information, but I I definitely needsome additional help. And you know, I think often times people feel like they need to go in and do a session withsomebody in person, but I mean, there are so many resources even online now. Um, you can even do sessions with peoplethrough Zoom calls. Like, what are some practical resources if someone's like, you know what, I'm going to number oneacknowledge that I probably need some help in this area and number two, I I want to, you know, find some solutionsand so that they can get that professional help. Yeah. So, a big one is like a lot of uma lot of the individuals I work with, especially power lines or and if they're in storms, like they're not home a lot.And so, we do online like that's just how it's going to go. Um, I am very fortunate in my my job andin my um just my own business that I offer very chaotic hours um becausethat's just how it works, right? And so you you can find a therapist that that offers that. Umyou know, sometimes it's you're in the truck and you're parked. I have a lot of guys that are on their lunch break thatthey're doing sessions with me. They're having their food. I'm having mine and we're we're having a conversation.It doesn't have to look as intense as I think therapy typically is made to look like on on TV or social media. It canbe. You can do a lot of work while it looks like just chitchat. And so that's a really really big one.Um, another is, you know, there's so many apps you can use. Like there's somany apps out there. Um the calm app, there's like mindfulness, things like that.Creating like a to-do list and not a to-do list in the sense of like umyou know, like what do I need to get done and like all this stuff, but more so like write down tomorrow's to-dobefore bed so your brain doesn't carry the list like into the like the all night and into the next day. So likethat's like that releasing that mental load. um you know kind of just makingsmall rituals for clocking out. So that's something that I do with with a lot of my clients. Um and what thatlooks like is making a list and like that's in their notes on the phone like called clocking out. This is what I thisis what I do. So it's visually there. We know for some people like visuals are really important. It might seem sillybut it works. So, it can't be that silly if it weren't.I love that. Great examples. Uh, can you share us just an anonymous story ofmaybe someone who might look a lot like someone who could be listening to thisthis show right now who, you know, has had some of those struggles. Maybe it'sfinancial stress, maybe it's workrelated stress, relationship stress. And youknow, at first they were hesitant to seek help, but they started to implement some, you know, real baselineuh strategies or maybe got some additional help and just the impact that it it made on them because I think storyis so powerful and sometimes I think we just as humans we just need to see that it's possible for things to bedifferent. Um but we just need to an example of of what that looks like. Can you share anything or anything thatcomes to mind? Yeah. So, there's a few that come to mind. So,okay. First thing that comes to my mind is I would say most of the guys I workwith in trades or or even uh in gang andthey're they're brought there. Um they don't want to be there. They want aquick fix and they want to get out. And I I get that. And I I'm I always say I am human first, therapist second. Whatyou see is what you get. And I always tell everybody, you didn't get here overnight. So, it's not going to changeovernight. It's not like um the doctor where I'm going to give you like, you know, antibiotics. You take it for 10 days and then poof, it's going to you'regoing to feel good. This is long hard work and there's stepsthat we can do. And so I had an individual that I worked withum who unfortunately passed away and from from illness. And so I rememberthey came in and they did not want to be there. It was kind of recommended, itwas told to them by their partner um that they, you know, should trycounseling. And they were very quiet and very reserved. And you know, I talkedabout, you know, you don't have to be here. Like you really don't. Um like I'm not holdingyou here. And so something that really lightened I think the mood waslike them being totally honest and was like listen like I don't really believe in mental health. I think it's like theysaid like I think it's BS. I don't even know about counseling. And I'm like you know what? Fair.Totally fair. You're allowed to have those thoughts. So, my job, I said, was to validate that. I I hear you. Andlet's just talk or we can sit in silence for 50 minutes. I'm really good at that. My kiddos really make me work for itsometimes. So, fast forward, a lot of our conversations were just chitchat. Itwas really getting to know one another. And I think some therapists don't work like that. For me, I work from like arelational standpoint. So what that means is I really really value the relationship and creating a safe spacelong term. And so we did a lot of conversation about you know who I am,who they are, um what's been going on in their dayto-day. And over timeit's created a space to have a conversation. So they came in um for substance use and depression and traumaand because of being uh in front lines is what what they came in for. And soit was a tough exterior to not to break, but to kind of pull through because theycreated this wall. And I and I'll always say like those coping skills you have, whether they're substance use, whether it's self harm, um whether it's really ahard exterior wall, it's there to protect you. And so is it a great copingskill? Not the most healthiest, but it's a coping skill nonetheless. So it's doneits job. So, we can always go back to that coping skill. You've you've got it. You know how it works. We can always useit. What would it be like to try other ones? What would it be like to maybe dabble in trying different things? Whatwould it be like? And this is really, really important, and it depends on who you work with, and all therapists obviously should be like this, butcreating that safe space with your client. And if you don't feel safe, I say this to every client. I might not bethe right fit for you, and you might not be the right fit for me. It's a relationship and it is actuallyso beneficial to you if I were to say, "Hey, I don't think I'm the best fit for you." If you're going to therapy and youdon't feel like it's a safe space, you don't feel like you can, you know, talk freely without judgment, then that's notthe one for you. And that's okay. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right therapist. And I will always saythis, do not feel like it's your fault. It's just not the right fit. It's thesame as dating. You kind of got to date therapists to figure out who's your good fit. And so that takes time andreminding yourself that that takes time. And so kind of fast forward in this um this client of mineuh who's near and dear to my heart, they they did not want to be there. I would say for a good six, seven sessions likewe were not doing any from the outside it wouldn't look like we're beating any goalsbut the job was just to create safety and security and so that's what we didand you know prior to them unfortunately passing away um they were able to theyweren't working like they they were off work because of all this um incidences at work for substance use accidents atwork like the perfect storm arm really. And so, long story short, we were ableto get them to a place of uh not using, which then in turned uh wedid a lot of what's called behavioral activation. So, creating like those baselines of eat, sleep, movement, umputting things in place to create motivation. They realized that they weren't in the job for them. They switched careers at Ithink they were like, let's say, in their late 50s, amazing. and they found what they love to do andfunny enough then on the side they started doing peer support work which was helping well in substance substanceuse which is so cool. Um I love I love seeing clients whoyou know come come to me for whatever walks of life and whatever reason and they find that they want to supportothers and like get into the field in in their own capacity. I absolutely love that.Such a great story. Haley, this has been such an awesome conversation. I reallyappreciate you sharing all your insight. And are there any uh last items that youwant to leave the audience with? Just some key takeaways. I would saythere could be what feels like so many barriers to, you know,getting counseling or accessing mental health. Um, we know there's stigma, you know, that tough it out culture. We knowthat there's, you know, fear of judgment. Timing and scheduling can be so hard, especially if you're traveling,um, and rotating locations. You know, cost is there. There's there's so manypieces to it, but take it in small steps.Make it small, tangible steps. And and always I always say check in with yourburnout. Okay, burnout. It's inevitable. We all go through it. Burnout is like acycle. You'll nine times out of 10 probably fall back into burnout one way oranother, multiple times in your life. But stopping that cycle is going to be so important. And learning what doesburnout look like for you. So, for me, it's not um it's kind of seeing clientsas numbers and not as clients being like, I got five today. Okay, got to get through these. Okay, I'm at number four. Okay, one more to go. That's when I knowI'm in a phase of burnout. Another is, you know, uh when my sleep schedule'soff, I'm going to bed later, waking up later, kind of getting to work a little bit too close to time, not setting up inthe way I feel the best. Learn what burnout looks like for you. And I alwayssay, you know, we hear it all the time, especially in Western culture. Oh, I just need a vacation. They go on vacation. Oh, I feel good. They comeback. Two, three weeks later, they're burnt out again. So, you can keep doing that, but you're still coming back tothe same burnout cycle. So, what does your burnout cycle look like? Acknowledge it and figure out where youcan start putting pauses in place for it to not continue and catching it. So, it's like catchingthe bullet is what I like to call it. That's huge. If that's the one takeaway I can give is pay attention to yourburnout. What does that look like? And small tangible steps. It's mental healthsounds big and scary. Mental health support sounds big and scary. Make it small. Small steps. Two steps forward,one step back. You're still going forward. I love that. Yeah. And I think people can feel so frustrated or defeated whenthey feel like they're not making progress or they, you know, fall back. But exactly what you said is it's ajourney and it it is often times, you know, two step forward, one step back. But um this has been so encouraging andI I think that people find a lot of value from from this conversation. Haley, where can people find you or umwhat resources do you provide both to individuals and to corporations? Yeah.So individual um you can and as well as as corporate you can um email me atinfossomclinicalcounseling.com um or you can visit my website so clinical counseling.com and if you'reinterested in working with me you can go to the contact form um if it's speakingengagements there is um a page on there for speaking engagements you can seesome testimonials uh podcasts and kind of what I offer in uh for companies andcorporations. how it looks and how I can tailor it and then there's a form there. You can feelfree to fill it out and we can get in touch. I love it. We'll post all that in the show notes so that people have that information and can reach out to you. But, you know, part of the mission of this podcast is we just believe that each individual out there has like a unique God-given identity and purpose. And um you know, we all experience challenges in life and we're just here to help each other become that best version of ourselves. And and so these type of conversations I think help achieve that. And I always say like when when I give presentations or or when I you know create content that's focused on you know helping people from a a wholeness and well-being standpoint is you're worth investing in. And I think if I take away anything from this conversation, it's just reinforcing like you are worth investing in each one of us and each one of you listening that you do matter. And so you know you have a support network and um we'd love to be able to serve you and plug you in the right direction. But Thank you somuch Hayley.
This has been a fantastic conversation. We look forward to continued collaboration. Thanks so much.Awesome. Thank you for having me.
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