Stronger on the Inside: Mental Toughness in the Trades

Growing up with a dad in the line trades, Haley Booker saw firsthand how the job took a toll at home. We are experiencing right now like just an unprecedented level of mental health in the trades. Asking for help doesn't make you weak.

In fact, it makes you a lot stronger.

As a registered clinical counselor, she's on the front lines bringing mental health conversations to crews, storm teams, and the toughest rooms you can imagine. As humans, we just need to see that it's possible for things to be different. Mental health sounds big and scary. Mental health support sounds big and scary. Make it small. Two steps forward, one step back. You're still going forward. This is the WorkReady Podcast.

 

At the end of the day, it's not just about getting through another shift. It's about having enough left in the tank for your family and building a career that lasts. That's why we created the Work Ready Podcast. If that's the kind of life you're working towards, subscribe and walk this journey with us. Every episode is one more step towards  retiring strong, not broken.

Hello and welcome to the Work Ready Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kevin Rindal. So happy to be joined today by Hayley Booker. Haley, welcome to the show. You have such an interesting background, both from a clinical perspective and then just from growing up with a dad in the trades and so I'm really excited about this conversation. I think there's so much that our listeners will gain from it. So Haley, thanks for

joining us.

 

Thanks for having me. As you mentioned, I'm a registered clinical counselor on the Northshore in in BC. Um I have my own practice here that primarily takes up most of my time and when I'm not doing that I am doing speaking

engagements for mental health in lines primarily um as well as other trades. So

a lot of the time I am doing whether it's podcasts or I'm doing also um coming into different organizations and companies to talk about how to first normalize mental health and mental health illnesses as well as um just

having that space and making it a little bit more accessible for for crew members, workers, frontline, whatever the case may be.

 

Yeah, that's so awesome. And your dad was in the line trade for I mean mostof his career and so you grew up in this. Can you tell us a little more about that?

Yeah, so dad was um he was a power line technician for oh god since I was born like since I was little. He was a lot of my memories of that was him on call. Um one of the big ones was a big ice storm. That would have been early 90s. I remember that one. He was gone for that. Um, so he was he was on the lines and I was always just thinking back it always like makes me so happy to think about because it's nostalgia at its

finest. He's kind of he was my hero. He was my superhero. I remember he would come into the school boards and I remember he came into our school to talk about Hydro and they always had the pickle that lit up and all the different stuff and it was pretty cool having him as that. Mind you, he was away at times. Um but when he came home he was always present. Fast forward to probably my teens, he switched roles into more supervisory role and that was definitely like a different experience. He was home more but I would say mentally so physically he was home mentally he was I think

elsewhere because of the job and the the things that came with it. And so I definitely noticed that shift. And I would say that would have been I'm kind of just jumping right in here, Kevin. That was just cuz I work in mental health. That was definitely a different point in my relationship with him because he was physically there, but mentally I could tell he was like not fully present at times just because of everything going on. So he's tired about that. Yeah. Have you talked to him? Have you talked to him about that? and just like what was it that was consuming his mind because I think if the story goes that was when he moved much more into like a supervisor role in management. Yeah, we've definitely had those talks. 

I would say we've had those talks like now more so. Um

looking back I think when when when I began working in the field of mental health so um definitely in my early 20s

all the way into my late 20s we would talk more cuz he was still working at the time. He's retired now.

we would talk about the struggles he was having with um like crew members like just if they were struggling with

something um conflict, communication issues, all that stuff. So at this stage

in my life, I can understand like why he was or the way he was or what was

happening that was kind of impacting the way he showed up as as a dad. But when you're a teen and you've had

your your your person um your hero, so to

speak, go from being so present and with you, you know, jumping on the trampoline, uh making forts, all that

stuff, to then being home for dinner nine times out of 10, but

the engagement was different. He was still there, but it was just different. Um,

and I would give even just an extra just to give him devil's advocate here is I was going through a lot of that time

with my own mental health. So I think looking back he was also dealing with um

issues at work along with coming home to me. Yeah. So he got the feel of the whammy.

And what got you into mental health and counseling?

O, that's a loaded question. Um, we're we're here all day. Stop.

Yeah. Right. Looking back through my teens or even I would say even my twins, like that 10, 11, 12 stage, I was really struggling

with my mood. Um, looking back, I could see it was depression and anxiety.

And so, you know, going through all that and then also, you know, being a a kid

and going to school and having, you know, your peer pressure and and you're just navigating peers and things like

that. It was a really hard experience for me. And so,

fast forward a little bit, I developed an eating disorder. I was really struggling with that all through my

teens. Um, and it wasn't until I was like 16, 17, I

ended up going into treatment. Um, and this is when

I think the big storm started was my dad was navigating a lot at work. So, a lot

of issues at work. Um, and then he would drive. So, my gym from a small town, um,

we he would drive over an hour to come see me in the hospital, sit with me

from, you know, let's say he's done work at 4, he'd get there at 5:30, sit with me till 7:00 8 at night listening to me

scream, yell, be so upset that I'm there just to give me a hug and a kiss, say I

love you, go go go home, go to sleep, and do it all over again the next day. And that went on for months. Um,

so that experience when I got out of treatment, I knew I

always wanted to work in some form of mental health. I didn't know what exactly. And I think the avenues back then were a little bit trickier. It

wasn't so set of like, okay, you do your degree, you do your masters, and then, you know, you can be a therapist. It was

very much like, well, I want to work with teens. I kind of want to work with kids who've been through the same thing as me, but I don't know what that looks

like. And so I kind of took the avenue of um child and youth work and

long story short, I went I just applied. I wanted out of my small town like so

bad. I didn't even know what I was applying to. I just wanted out. Um surprisingly enough, I don't know why

they even accepted me because I did horrible in high school. Um I got in in

Toronto and I was I was gone like that. I wanted out. Funny enough, I really

liked it and I was like, "Oh, this is something like that I'm kind of into and

this is what meets what kind of I've been wanting to work on." Um,

so I did the program, I did really, really well. And then it was, okay, what's the next step? And so then I did

my degree, same thing in child and youth, but I didn't really know how to become a therapist. It was kind of like, okay, how do I get to that part? And so

I was in my degree and unfortunately I I relapsed and so I ended up moving back

home. And during that time I spent a lot of time in and out of treatment living with my parents which is very different

when you're in your you know your mid20s at that time. The probably the best part about all

that was I had some I had experience and I had post-secary

knowledge on kind of the sciences to what was going on for me. So, and my dad will even even

say this, you know, he was very fortunate to have me as his daughter to be like, "Hey, this is what I'm going through and this is what's happening."

Um, while also still going through it myself. And I always tell parents like that's not a common thing, right? to

have have a kiddo to be like, "Hey, you know, I'm struggling. This is kind of what's going on inside from a mental

health standpoint." And then also like struggling themselves. So, I was kind of doing two jobs at once. Um, fortunately,

I recovered and did long-term therapy, which is like what got me to be like, "Okay, this is the route I want to go."

And so, I applied and I did my masters. And next thing you know, I got so busy

and started doing what I love to do. Um, but I think at the end of the day,

Kevin, a big part of it was, you know, my own therapist was a big reason why I wanted to get into the field of

counseling, my own experiences of mental health. And then also, there was so much lack of support. Like, we drove hours um

to go get support. I think we would do hour and a half, sometimes two hours all

the way to Toronto uh twice a week just right after my mom was done work, hit rush hour and go straight there just to

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Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think that, you know, you and I have spoken at different times about how

much that shaped you from an empathy and just an understanding perspective. And what's so cool now is you work with, I

mean, people like troubled youth all the way to like gang members, Hell's Angels,

I mean people in the trades, like just such a broad swath of people. But uh the

one thing that stands out in our conversations is just that at the end of the day like we're all human beings and

there are so many similar struggles and often times it comes back to fear. It comes back to previous life experience

or um identity issues. What are some of the similarities that you see across like you know all those different

groups? We call them groups but I mean again we're we have all the same things biologically that cause us to tick.

Yeah. So, you know, my experience, I've worked with um gang youth. I've worked with um high-risk youth. I've worked

with um you know, gang adults, so helping with um getting people out of

gang life. And so, that's all the way like I've you and I have chatted all the way from Hell's Angels and um things

like that. And at the end of the day, you know,

it really comes down to this need for belonging and identity. And I think, you know, when we look at every individual,

whether they're in gang life, whether they're, you know, um, alignment, whether they're in frontline work, we

crave a place where we feel accepted. And for some that's community, for others it's it's gang life, it's a crew,

it's a brotherhood. Um, we all desire to feel safe. And so

recognition, respect, we all carry unprocessed pain at times

and how we cope can vary, but we all try to find a way to cope. So whether that's

excessively working, going to the gym like very much intensively, um engaging

in substance use, like we all try to find a way to cope. It just looks different. And so I always say to any of

my clients, especially when working with um trades or front line, at the end of

the day, you know, whether you're wearing a hard hat, whether you're wearing a patch, a uniform,

you're human first. And we all wrestle with this fear, this desire for

belonging, this need to be seen, this need to be heard. and the way we cope might look different, but underneath

the heart's the same. And that's really what it comes down to. Yeah, that's so good. We're going to

continue down this thread here in a second, but before we leave this, I can

imagine that there are moms and dads listening to uh this podcast and they

have kids who are teens or tween and, you know, going through the some of those big like life moments and

transitions and struggles like what would you say to those parents who may be experiencing, you know, a

disconnection or watching their child struggle? like what are some of the resources that you now sitting in the

seat as a you know a counselor who's who's helping to guide

them what would you say given your experience and what you see

you know what at the end of the day just listen like

yes we want to fix like when it's our kiddos we want to fix we want them not to feel this way um whether they're

engaging in, you know, behaviors that you're you're not a fan of or you're worried about their mental health or,

you know, they're navigating anxiety, depression, whatever the case is,

first and foremost, listen like without judgment. And I know that can be hard cuz it's it's your child at the end of

the day. But when you create that space for them to be heard and not just heard, but truly truly feel seen,

that is at the base. Next is, you know, a lot of my parents

come in, they're stressed out, they're frustrated, all these things. And and there's a disconnect right in between the relationship between the two. And I

always tell my parents like take yourself back to that age, whether it was 13, 15, 16, like not just think

about it, but truly take yourself back there. I tell all my kiddos, you guys

have it harder than than I did. and and you have, you know, they they have it

harder than you did. And so, every generation is different, but they have things that we we don't have. We didn't

have like excessive technology like right at our fingertips. Um, you know, that pure pressure and we can easily say

to to kids, you know, don't do this or like, you know, don't fall for peer pressure. But it's a lot harder than that. And we know that deep down we do.

So take yourself back to that moment and remind yourself like

their world looks like this. They don't have the wisdom, you know, the years of

experience, the the the moments to like look back and be like, "Oh, that was so silly." Like, you know,

I shouldn't have done that or you know, like it's not it's not a bad thing to ask for help or to say like this is what

I'm struggling with. In that moment, though, it's hard for them like in the present moment. So my two things like

always take away is like listen truly make space and listen and put yourself in their shoes. Like truly put yourself

in their shoes. That's so so helpful. Thank you for that. And I'm sure that we'll get some

some more questions on that after we post this. But um and we'll definitely provide your contact information because

I'm sure you know that's something that's always top of mind for people. But let's now shift back to um your

interaction with your dad cuz he came from a different generation where you

know no one really talked about emotions. No one talked about mental health in the trades and what what was

it like then and maybe now contrast that to some of the things that you're seeing now in terms of these conversations

being a part of work or just even acknowledged. Yeah. So something that sticks out right

when you right when you say that Kevin something that sticks out is when I was I would say

probably 14 15 um I remember sitting at the table. So, I

love this for our family is that we always had dinner together. Like, it was just a thing. And so, funny enough, dad

was at one end, I was at the other. And we were talking and I mentioned how I

was struggling. And I said, "I think I'm I think I'm struggling with depression. Like, I think I'm depressed."

And I remember he got so mad. and he was frustrated and he didn't

understand like you know and I remember him saying something along the lines of like you know like I've given you

everything like you're you have everything you need like I don't understand you have a good life and so

you know take yourself back to that like that child moment like that's hard to

hear like you're looking for support and that's not what you're getting but from a standpoint of where I am like

he didn't have the tools. He didn't have the resources. And back then,

and even today, but but back then, like if it wasn't broke, if he couldn't visually see that I had a broken bone or

like I was hurting physically, it's it was a hard concept to grapple with. And

mind you, he was working as a power line. Like he was he was on the line. So he was with the crew where

that you know that mindset of like toughen up be strong don't show emotions

was very very present and so you know when I think of speaking engagements or

even just going into um organizations or companies and talking about you know

mental health there's a there's a there's a big difference like there's

there's definitely a spectrum So often times my my younger ones, so early 20s all the way to like late 20s, they

they'll pipe in. Now mind you, I always set the tone of like I am going to be vulnerable. I'm going to be sharing my

stories in this presentation. All I ask for is respect for my

vulnerability and I will give you the same. And and that really sets the tone um for the presentation. And what's

funny enough, I could think back to so many times where I've got these, you know, gentlemen who are in their 50s or

60s who are about to retire or even just in their late 40s who they've got this

this stigma, this belief around mental health and and mental illness and

struggling. and they really make it vocalized during our session or during our

presentation. And not only does that impact people to to speak up, but

they're the ones that really will challenge me. And so it's interesting

that, you know, I'll come back the following year, let's say, or 6 months, and the guard comes down a little bit,

and then I'll come back again, and the guard comes down a little bit more. And so that's the big like difference in

terms of those generations along with I think the younger generations like they really

you know after after I present like they're the ones coming up to me after and I always say to anybody when you

bring me in like give me time after because I guarantee I'm going to do like mini sessions is what ends up happening.

Um, but they're the ones that feel safe to do so. And so I really see that as the

difference is like the just the attitude they bring into into those sessions or

into those presentations. Tell us about like one of the first times that you did speak to a group of

trades people cuz I I believe it was actually at the company that your dad works for and yeah um he was a little bit nervous at first.

Oh, he was so nervous. I remember um my mom and I had a good talk with him. My

mom kind of said like she knows her stuff. Like she can hold her own. And I get it. I'm his daughter. Like it's

hard. He knows how they are. He works with them. Like he sees them for for how they can be. Um mind you, I've worked

with gang youth and troubled, you know, youth that have had troubled moments. Um

and they they're they're tough cookies to deal with at times. And so, you know, going in my dad was quite I could tell

he was nervous and wanted them to be respectful. And so, you know, you got the ones that wear their sunglasses,

won't take them off during um they're on their phones in the back. And so,

I am the type of person who is going to go I I walk during the presentation. I

don't stand up front like I am going to the back. I'm introducing myself. I am bringing you forward. And so I'll never

forget the first time I had this this one gentleman who debated me on so much,

but he was engaged. And it wasn't just a debate. He actually listened too. Like

we were we were really connecting in that way. And so I always say bring your beliefs, bring

your you know your beliefs or your biases forward. But what I ask for you is to get

comfortable with maybe being a little bit uncomfortable during the session because I'm going to challenge you and you're going to challenge me and that's

how we learn. It's a dialogue. And so looking back it went it went wonderful

but it was terrifying. I will admit it's especially when your dad's in the room and then you know fast forward he's

always like wanting to come to them and I'm like no you can't. I can have my dad

there for all of them. So I love that. What are the things that

you find are the common hook when you connect with these different groups like the the topic or you know the common

thing that people in the trades tend to like really resonate with and they're like oh man I'm I'm dealing with that or

let's lean into this topic a little bit more. That's a good one. I would say

thinking about when I present, I often bring in case studies of individuals I

have worked with um that are similar into the trades and that that definitely hits home for them a little bit more

because it it resonates with them. It's not just somebody who's you know working in I don't know HR or something like

they they are on the lines or the front line or whatever the case may be. Another one is my stories. So I am very

very open about my experiences of an eating disorder, of trauma, depression, anxiety, like the whole

gist. And I use myself as a case study and I'll ask them questions. Okay, why

do you think I was acting this way? Like why do you think this was happening at that time? And they'll they'll throw

answers out there and I'm like, it doesn't hurt my feelings. Like I want you to get creative and use that part of your brain. Um, a big part for the and

it's primarily the guys that I work with is they love science. Like I can come in

and talk about mental health, but if I don't have that, you know, biocschosocial,

like the the physiology, the science, neuroscience behind it, they don't really care. So often times I really

start the base with the science of, you know, the brain, why this is happening, what this looks like. that we do some

activities and they love activities. They all all line guys and trades, they

need to be moving. So, I need to keep them busy and that that creates that connection of like, okay, the work and

what they're learning as well as like putting their hands into it and kind of figuring out how this all works. That is

probably the biggest one I see that helps them go, oh, I get why this is happening.

Can you give us an example of that? like one of those aha moments where they experience that cuz I

I mean we are experiencing right now like just an unprecedented level of mental health in the trades like record

unfortunately I mean suicides are so high drug overdoses opioid use things like that

and so like I think this is one of those silent things and again you you mentioned if it's not broke if I can't

see something physical physically wrong it often just gets shuffled But, uh, I

mean, the more that I'm in this world, the more I realize like there are just so many people that are struggling from

a mental standpoint. And so, like, I think being able to have these practical conversations are so powerful. Can you

share some of those things, the examples that you give? Yeah. So, one of them that comes to mind

is um, a most recent conversation, actually, it's probably a year ago now,

was around substance use. And we see a lot of that, right? We see a lot of sub substance use and abuse happening,

whether it's um alcohol, whether it's um marijuana use, cocaine, uh pain

medication, things like that. So, I first start off with talking about the brain and what each part does. And I

bring in a lot of Play-Doh and they get to make the brain. And it's a great experience because yes, it's funny. And

also, um the guys love sweets and treats

and things. So they've they've got stuff that they're like working towards and that's how I kind of keep them occupied. And so they they figure out the brain

and they learn the brain from just a science model. And then we get into, you know, what does these substances do?

What is like the dopamine part doing? You know, when you're coming home on a Friday and then you're having beers all

weekend, you're smoking weed. You know, maybe you're partying a little bit more. You're using cocaine. How does that

impact the next day or even the day after? And what's so beautiful about

that is not only is it the group of guys that like are there, it's also, you know, me

and them and and kind of working together. We create this beautiful space of hours spent together where they will

use their own examples, you know, like I have these gentlemen who are in their 50s raising their hand and being like,

"Okay, this is what I do on the weekend. So, how does that, you know, impact my brain?" And so I focus in on one person

and they're, you know, they're learning from just me and them and we kind of, it's almost like everybody disappears in

that moment, but then you got all the other people in the room that are like, "Oh, okay." And so it's creating that

vulnerability that allows for them to be like, "Oh, so he's doing that and that's what's

happening. Oh, okay. Okay. So that's probably what's happening to me." And then it kind of creates this like domino

effect where they all start talking and being like, "Oh, so is that why this happens?" Yeah. That's why, you know,

you know, Monday you're tired, but Tuesday you have severe anxiety. You know, you drank all Saturday night, you wake up, Sunday is like hangover day,

and then Monday you have really bad anxiety cuz it's like 2 days later or 3 days later, and then you kind of get

after you get over that hump, Thursday, you do it all again Friday. And they're like, "Ah, okay." So, it's really like

that aha science moment that kind of makes sense to them. Um,

another one that comes to mind is, you know, when we talk about suicide and it's it's

a really heavy topic and so for some people they feel uncomfortable with it and I try to normalize it as much as

possible in the sense of suicidal ideation. um really creating like a sense of like it's

it's not something we have to hush hush because I really truly believe like mental illness grows in secrecy.

And so something that's an aha moment for them is I worked with a gentleman who unfortunately died by suicide that

worked in um that worked in the trades in lines and it was because of an

accident that occurred on the lines that he felt he was um at fault for and there

was no unfortunately there was not enough supports in place. maybe right

after there was but not weeks and months later. And so

when I share that story, it really hits them. And then bringing it back as like

why do you think we we'll never know fully why, but what do you think was

kind of the risk factors that kind of maybe impacted

suicidal ideation and the attempt and and suicide to occur? And so kind of

having those moments Those are such great examples. I want to drill into

that a little bit more on both of those examples that you gave. So let's say the example of that group who's talking

about like you know maybe the drugs or the alcohol in that pattern that they fall into and they are able to share

that and get it out on on their chest and it and it just in some realms I think it helps normalize and it it

creates a little bit of a bond there because people are like oh actually I'm

experiencing the same struggles but what are the practical applications like what do you teach people um you know in those

moments that they can put into practice that might help them make better decisions or choose healthier behaviors.

So I think I think there's there's a there's a few pieces. So

right away when you say that Kevin I think of you know how

how can there be like support and how can we complicate or impact like negatively impact our mental health at

work like I think it really comes down to that piece and so you know in whether

it's trades or frontline um you know crews teams like at the end of the day those are like the backbone of getting

things done right like that you need to have that in order for things to get done. And that same

structure can either buffer stress or intensify it. And and that's kind of how

I look at it. And so when you're working as a team, like built-in support systems

are huge. Um, you know, crews often feel like a second family. You are with each other a lot. Like when you're on the

road or or stormchasing, like you're with them more than you are with your wife or your, you know, your partner or your kids. So shared experiences,

creating trust, belonging, having someone who gets it can reduce that isolation, you know, having those shared

burdens, like that's huge. High pressure tasks can feel less overwhelming. Um,

when like we have responsibility that's really distributed. Um, when we have

that sense of connection, you know, teammates or other members can like step in when someone's physically or

emotionally stretched. And often times we don't do that in society. Like we really don't

jump in and be like, "Hey, you know what? You're struggling." Or someone says, "You know, I've got a lot on my plate." And they're like, "You're struggling. I got you. We don't see that

often." But if we were to do that, we would have a solid foundation.

So these are some things that like I think of that that can be a part of it. And like that is where like identity and

pride really come in. So when we look at crews, like having strong bonds within a

crew, um we know it boosts morale. We know it boosts loyalty um and meaning in

the work. We know that like a sense of purpose can really come from contributing to something bigger. I

often use the example I was at a speaking engagement a while ago and um

for some reason nine times out of 10 there's a lot of companies and crews

that you know there's like imshment happening like they're coming together.

um there's a lot of conflict just personality is not not aligning and that

really impacts the work that you do right like your ego and not in the sense of having

a big ego but like that piece of you gets in the way to get the work done and and we see it all the time where you

know work doesn't get done properly risks happen because of personality is not driving and we can't put that stuff aside and see each other as like a

family so so that's something I see um we're

together a lot, right? So, like co-workers or crews, like they often notice first if someone's struggling,

like they're going to notice quicker than probably your partner because you're with each other the most. Um,

and when you have that supportive team, like it can really it can really encourage like those helpseeking kind of

behaviors before um issues begin to escalate. And like that's a big one I

see is like how do we how can we notice first? What do we do first? And like

that's the big one I see is like, okay, like sure, somebody's struggling, but like what do I do? Yeah.

And yeah, what does somebody do? Because it is it is interesting when you work with someone that much, you notice the

the smallest changes in behavior. You you can tell when somebody's head's not in the game. And so what does someone do

in that situation? So I think,

okay, I think first and foremost, I think it's important to break it down. So before you look at what can somebody

do to to kind of like support someone, I think it comes down to first like if you are the person struggling.

Yeah. So for the worker or like the the whoever you are struggling like

my first thing that I truly believe in is normalizing it. Right. So like remind yourself that everyone has limits. We

all have limits. Asking for help doesn't make you weak. In fact, it makes you a lot stronger. Um,

you know, a quick check-in with with a co-orker or someone that you trust or a supervisor is the first step. So, with

my dad specifically, you know, some of the guys really trusted him. You know,

my dad has said, "I've never had a grown man come into my room, you know, balling his eyes out, having a panic attack or

an anxiety attack." And I remember telling my dad like, "That's vulnerability." Like, you you are that

safe space for them. Like not only is that hard for you, you're like, "Oh my god, I've never dealt with this before,

but take a moment and like take a step back and realize like you're their safe space." Like for them to be able to do

that, that says a lot. So if you're the person struggling, like find that person that's your person that you feel you can

let your guard down and say, "Hey, like I'm feeling overwhelmed or this is what's going on."

Another thing is is when you are, you know, going to somebody to talk about um

what's kind of bothering you, try to use really really concrete language.

So focus on what's happening to you rather than kind of like that generalized

um conversation or self-criticism. So saying, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I need a break. Um I'm

dealing with this and I need some support. like really really being concrete about it.

Another thing is have a plan. So know what supports are available within your work. So every company I've ever went

and spoke to, I always ask them before I start, what's your mental health program or plan? Do you have EAP? Do you have a

safety officer, a rep, mental health professional? Um what are your benefits like? And I'm like if you Okay, what are

they? Perfect. Give them to me. I want to read them and see what they are because we have them but a lot of the

times people don't know what they are and when you're in that space you don't know where to look. It's so exhausting

to find something. So that's kind of where I start like that's the the backbone of it all. Next I would say is

like when it's when you are whether you are a crew leader, a

co-orker or somebody in that it's so important to create a safe

environment. So really lead by example and I know that's so easy to say but

like try to be vulnerable. So share share openly about your stress, right?

So like or fatigue or asking for help yourself. create those check-ins regularly being like, "Oh, how however

how is everybody holding up um at the start or the end of the shift that really signals like, okay, your mental

health matters." Um validate, validate, validate,

acknowledge and validate. Listen without judgment, you know, thank them for sharing.

Really validate like, you know, that makes sense why, you know, you're feeling that given what you're dealing

with. um provide options. Yes, you can validate, but then it's

okay. What do what do we do? So, make it clear what support is available and

really emphasize that seeking help confidential. I always say, you know, there's so much shame and stigma around

mental health and getting support in the trades, frontline work.

making it known that it's confidential is going to create that safe space and just normalize, you know, breaks and

timeouts and reinforce that taking care of your mental state is just as important as physical safety. Like at

the end of the day, asking for help, I always say to the guys, asking for help is like flagging a hazard on a job,

right? It keeps you and everyone around you safe. So, just like we wouldn't ignore, you know, a broken ladder, a

broken tool, we shouldn't ignore our mental health. Yeah, and even talking about your

physical safety and the safety of the rest of your team, like when your head's not in the game, it does put everything

at risk because you have to be on, especially when you're working in those high-risisk environments. And so, yeah,

so so important. And I know that one of the things that we talk a lot about is like that prejob brief is such an

important time uh before you start work. And so being able to have that space and

often times we throw out terms like psychological safety, but it's essentially what you're just talking about of like creating that safe space

for people to raise their hand and say, you know what, like I'm I don't think I'm in a space where I can do this type

of work today. And um creating that environment definitely does increase your safety uh as a team.

So going on to just talk about let's

uh pull on that thread a little bit more about suicide because I do think it is it's a big um topic. So workplace

injuries that lead to death the rate is currently 3.5

deaths per 100,000 workers. Um but suicide um amongst uh you know the

workforce right now is 56. So it's almost like a 19fold increase compared to deaths that happen

just due to to jobs. And so it just I think highlights how impactful this is.

And so going back to that example that that you gave of um that individual who

felt guilty because um of a potential you know error that he made that led to

another injury. But what would you say to to, you know, folks who maybe have

that guilt or maybe they've even experienced like one of their own brothers or sisters who uh took their

own life and, you know, they're dealing with that or maybe they experienced um someone on their crew that that died

during uh work and they're experiencing that grief or that heaviness.

First and foremost, it it breaks my heart to say, but like

you're not alone. And grief grief is is inevitable, right? Like it's it's a part

of life. And so get support. Like

when you're navigating that, it's really hard to understand, especially if you're someone who who struggles to understand

like suicide or suicidal ideation and you have your own biases towards it.

Having someone to kind of bounce your thoughts with is really important. So whether that's a therapist, whether

that is somebody at work, um

when you lose someone to suicide, and unfortunately, you know, I think a lot

of us know somebody who's who's died by suicide, it's it's a hard one to grapple

with because it wasn't an accident or it wasn't, you know, old age or something like that.

There there's a lot underneath of all that. And so I think it's it's hard for some people to wrap their head around.

So having having someone to talk to and remind yourself that like

it is not your fault if if somebody has died by suicide and

you feel like you were um a part of that reason or whatever the case may be. And I think you know just coming back to

like when someone shares suicidal ideiation now mind you like we are in trades it's

not as common to like share openly but

if someone brings it up even in a joking manner like take it seriously. Always assume the risk is real. I always say

that just assume the risk is real. Um, I would rather someone be mad at me for

going an extra step and then being upset because I care for their safety than not

doing something just because I don't know what to do and I don't want to upset somebody.

If someone brings it up, stay calm, stay present. I know that's hard to do. Don't

panic. Your presence matters, right? So, listen without judgment. Let them talk.

you know, acknowledge feelings, avoid argue, arguing, avoid minimizing, right? Oftentimes, especially in trades, we

minimize. Hey, yeah, I get it. You know, it's tough. You're just gonna, you know, you'll get through it. Don't worry. Yes,

that sounds encouraging, but it's also quite minimizing. Another is ask direct questions. That is

the hardest thing to do. As a therapist, I'm used to it. I get that. But it's

really, really important to ask those direct questions. You know, are you thinking about ending your life? Are you

thinking about killing yourself? It doesn't make it more likely. It actually clarifies the risk,

get help immediately. You know, contact somebody right away. Um, offer them crisis lines, tell someone right away.

If it's immediate risk, don't leave them alone. You know, seek emergency services, follow up, stay in touch.

It sounds like a lot and it's like, "Oh my god, I got to do all this." And like that puts a lot on you. It's like, "Oh my goodness, like I'm taking this role."

But it's but simplify it. Stay present. Listen without judgment. Ask direct

questions. Go get help. And I know this is a heavy topic and

we're not going to try to solve everything on this call, but what I will do is in the show notes is Haley. I know

that you have some great resources for that. So, we'll add those in the show notes. Um, I just want to give a shout

out to an organization that we work closely with called Union Care Solutions, Jenny Lavin, and she does a

lot with like mental first aid. Um, they call them schism groups. And so, there's

so many resources out there now. And so, we'll definitely post some of that because you shouldn't feel like you have

to navigate this all on your own and it's your responsibility to to do this. But definitely if if you're in a

position of leadership or if you're on a team, um, just educating yourself. To me, if it's it's just like knowing CPR

and AD um first aid, it's it's being able to have those skills and the

confidence when you encounter a situation, you at least know that you could help uh

navigate in that those critical moments. So, we'll definitely uh post some of those resources here because I think I

mean we all need to be working on it together. Uh, one of the examples that I've heard

you give and I think that this goes back to some of the things that we've talked about is I think you called it the

stress bucket or it's it's like a a cup that's overflowing and you you give that

example and it's a pretty hands-on exercise that you do with your group. Can can you share that and maybe help us

visualize what that is and and how we can view all the different buckets in

our life that tend to start to get filled and how we can manage that. Yeah.

So, first and foremost, I think organizations and companies hate when I bring all the water in because they know

it's not it's going to be a mess. I always tell them like, "Make sure you got the janitors, the cleaners ready."

Um, so something I do is I get everybody to I give them a cup, okay? And they

have a water bottle. And so within your cup, I will bring up things. Okay.

First and foremost, do you have a family? Yep. Are you in a relationship? Okay. Where do you feel like that's at

right now? Put some water in your cup. That takes a big part of your life. Work. How much does that take up in your

life? Okay. Keeps going. Um, another one is, you know, have you

engaged in your hobbies or your your things that you enjoy? Nine times out of 10, they're like, "No, I haven't had

time." Okay, put water in your cup. Another one. Okay. Have you connected

with friends lately? No, I've been too busy. Okay, put that in the cup. We kind of go through all the things that are

kind of overfilling their cup right now. I hear it a lot where they're like, "Haley, I am at the brim." I'm like,

"That sucks. Keep going." Like, this is your life. And so, you know, a lot of

them it's overflowing. And then I'll say to them, okay, have you, you know, have you done any um

have you played any sports this week? And some are like, yeah, I went to hockey. Okay. Did that feel good? Yeah,

I got some stress out. I got to see my buddies, you know, hang out, take a sip of water. Okay, we're watching it go

down and up. And often times, um, you'll hear that that saying of like, oh, you

know, what do you do to fill up your cup? I kind of do it the opposite way, like what is overflowing your cup? So, I

always tell the guys, it's almost like it's almost like a tin bucket. We got to put holes in our in our tin bucket to

help it from overflowing. So, what are those for you? And and you and I have talked about like that's your triage,

right? That's your, you know, eat, sleep, and movement. Those are your

three main ones and then we can build from there. Yeah, let's talk about it. I love that.

So, let's talk about eat, sleep, and movement. How those are three, you know, very practical things and and

why should people care about that? The you know,

they're they're just so important. Like I always say they are um I call it

triage because they are the first like small first steps right so if somebody

comes in um and they're burnt out even thinking about you know just fixing all

different parts of their life can feel so overwhelming and instead of tackling like all the emotional stuff at once we

can start with manageable steps. So, improving sleep, carving out a break or

movement, um naming what's going on, things like that. But when I break it down to those three pieces, we know that

sleep is like it's so important, especially if you struggle with anxiety or are at risk for depression or

substance use is happening. Like sleep is crucial. So, sleep restores the

brain, right? It regulates our emotions. Um sleep is the body's it's its reset

button, right? Without it, mood regulation, concentration, stress tolerance, they all plummet. Next is

poor sleep. You know, we know that it increases the risk of anxiety. It increases the risk of depression,

irritability. It even increases the risk of physical injury, especially, you

know, if you're working in construction or utility jobs. How many of us have not gotten a good night's sleep and you know

we're bumping into things the next day or we're forgetting things like it's there. Deep sleep helps the brain

process emotions and recover from stress. So it really makes it central to resilience. So anytime somebody has a

heavy session with me, I'm like, "Okay, sleep's going to be super super important tonight."

Next is nutrition and eating. How many of the guys and I've talked to them. I'm like, "How many of you guys are drinking

coffee all day? you know, eating on the road, things like that. Food fuels the

body and it stabilizes mood. Hands down. Food is literally the brain's it's its

fuel source, right? So, skipping meals, relying on high sugars, caffeine, um undereating, it can worsen mood swings,

right? We talk about being hangry. It creates fatigue, foggy thinking. Um when

we have those balanced meals, we have lots of protein, the complex carbs, um the healthy fats, it really helps to

stabilize blood sugar, right? Which is going to reduce your irritability and improve your focus.

Good nutrition helps the body heal from from also physical strain and stress. We know

this. So, I always say to anybody I'm working with, like, think about what you're eating. No shame. No shame at

all. This isn't a diet. This isn't taking things out or putting things in per se. This is just looking at, okay,

like what does a typical day look like. Okay, I have, you know, four or five cups of coffee and I eat probably around

three. Okay, so your body's cortisol is up all day and then you come down from the

crash. A lot of the times this correlates with sleep. So some of my guys are like, I can't sleep. I can't

sleep. And I'm like, okay, when's your last coffee? Well, it's around like 2:00. I'm done work at 4:00. I'm like,

it has a long shelf life in the body. That's why. So, I always say to any of my guys, you're not having coffee like

after after two. And definitely I would love before 12, like in a perfect world. So, that's those are some big ones that

I always have them do. Movement and exercise and activity. I

I get it. I sit all day with people. a lot of the, you know, trades and front

line, they're on their feet all day. And so they're like, why would I want to move my body if I've been on my feet all

day? I get it. But it's a different type of movement. So when we have

intentional, you know, intentional movement, it releases stress and it

boosts the mood. We know this and I talk about dopamine with the guys a lot is like this is good dopamine, you know,

regular movement. It releases endorphins, um, it releases dopamine, serotonin. Those are natural mood

stabilizers. Physical activity is going to lower that stress hormone like cortisol um which we see uh like nine

times out of 10 is really chronically elevated during burnout. Even light activity like going for a walk,

stretching is a big one. I always say to the guys like stretch that it's going to really help regulate

energy and promote better sleep too. And so

I'll say all these things and they're like, "Okay, but why are these like why are they the baseline then? Like why?" And I say like they're foundational,

right? So without sleep, without fuel, without movement, the brain and body are are in constant survival mode is what it

is. And so those three are all interconnected. So good sleep makes it easier to eat well.

And movement, you know, improves sleep. Balanced eating stabilizes energy. So movement and rest possible. And they're

all controllable first steps. So unlike you know therapy or like that complex

therapy work or big life changes, these daily habits give you know people just

even small tangible concrete wins that's going to help um just build momentum.

Yeah, that's so good. There have been studies that show that even just light exercise, I mean, we're talking about

like 15 to 20 minutes of a light walk, being outside, being in nature, like

almost has a similar effect to like um some of the medication uh impacts that people experience. And so, yeah. No, I

love that. And when you think about the demands of a lot of the workforce, you're working a storm, you're up 18

hours, you're probably drinking Monster Energy Jinx, you know, eating out of a 7-Eleven. um you know, fried food and uh

sugar, all this stuff. And then yeah, and you are moving, but there's also a

lot of time in your truck. There's a lot of time in static positions while you're working maybe on a pole or in different

difficult environments. And so, yeah, all these things definitely filter over into that mental health. So, such good

reminders. Uh what what are some additional practical

steps? I think even beyond this, like I even think about there's great research

on breathing and breath work and it it sounds kind of wooy but it's like it it

can help you know lower your sympathetic drive and start to balance out your parasympathetic nervous system. We know

that um you know spiritual practices and beliefs and faith can also help people.

What are some of your thoughts on some of those other areas? So, I work from a sematic based uh lens,

which really means um connecting mind and body together.

Clients who know me, I'm really big on research, so it has to be backed up. Like, I know it sounds woowoo, but we we

know that there is um there's evidence and research on this.

Breathing is so important, right? So, I'm not saying like I get it. I'm not saying, you know, you're going to sit

there in the grass during a shift and like go into, you know, Buddha pose and and do breath work, but what I say to

them is like some practical techniques that you can use on a job or even after work to to really like decompress to

regulate your emotions and to relieve stress. One is micro breaks and that's even 2 minutes of stretching, stepping

away from the noise. I always tell my clients, is your tongue on the roof of your mouth? Bring it down. Okay? Check

your jaw. unclench it, let it relax. Um, you know, roll out your shoulders and bring them down. Just those little

little tiny movements are going to be super important. I know you can't step away for long from work, but even just

for 30 seconds, like go inwards and go, "Okay." Okay. Am I clenching? Yep. Are

my shoulders up to my ears? Yep. Okay. Pull it down a little bit. And that's just those little reminders.

After work transition rituals are so important. Like I truly believe having

rituals after work and even before bed are super super important not only for the brain and body but just even um to

create that sense of you know routine structure and just letting your brain

and body know like hey it's time to to relax. So one I often talk about is

physical reset. So what that is is you know a quick walk shower change of clothes to signal your body you're off

the clock. How many of those guys I know they come home and they're sitting in their clothes. They go to their shop and

they're in their clothes till, you know, 7 8 at night. No, take them off. If you

don't have time to shower, put on, you know, put on some sweats and a t-shirt. It's signaling to your body you're off

the clock. You're done. You're home. That's a big one. It sounds so silly, but it's it's a really easy one to do.

Next is, you know, active release. So sports, gym, yard work to burn off that

tension is going to be important. I get you don't want to do it right when you get home, but finding something to do.

So something I absolutely loved was when my dad would come home, he'd come and jump on the trampoline with us. It's

exercise, yes, but he's out, he's moving his body, he's with us, he's having fun.

It signals to us, dad's home, dad's present, he's off the clock. And that

also signals to his brain, hey, I'm off the clock. I'm with my kids. We're on the trampoline.

Um, quick recovery. That's huge. You know, music, breathing, journaling, mindful hobbies. I always say to the

guys like, "What are your hobbies?" You know, fishing, woodworking, um, do you go hunting, things like that? Set those

up throughout um, the month is what I typically say. How fast did has

September went? Right? It's went so quick. Have you done anything? No, not really. Okay. So, for October, I want

you to think about, okay, I've got this time. I'm going to go fishing on this day, and I'm going to do this on this

day. Having a few things that you look forward to are going to be really, really helpful for your body and brain

to know, okay, this is some techniques we're doing to help decompress.

Those are such great examples, and it's so practical. Like, I love the example of just changing your clothes when you

get home or jumping on the trampoline. It it just it's not only signals to yourself but to everyone else that that

you're present and that um you're off the clock. I I love that.

Um what are some maybe some techniques that you specialize in uh if somebody is

like, you know, this is great information, but I I definitely need

some additional help. And you know, I think often times people feel like they need to go in and do a session with

somebody in person, but I mean, there are so many resources even online now. Um, you can even do sessions with people

through Zoom calls. Like, what are some practical resources if someone's like, you know what, I'm going to number one

acknowledge that I probably need some help in this area and number two, I I want to, you know, find some solutions

and so that they can get that professional help. Yeah. So, a big one is like a lot of um

a lot of the individuals I work with, especially power lines or and if they're in storms, like they're not home a lot.

And so, we do online like that's just how it's going to go. Um, I am very fortunate in my my job and

in my um just my own business that I offer very chaotic hours um because

that's just how it works, right? And so you you can find a therapist that that offers that. Um

you know, sometimes it's you're in the truck and you're parked. I have a lot of guys that are on their lunch break that

they're doing sessions with me. They're having their food. I'm having mine and we're we're having a conversation.

It doesn't have to look as intense as I think therapy typically is made to look like on on TV or social media. It can

be. You can do a lot of work while it looks like just chitchat. And so that's a really really big one.

Um, another is, you know, there's so many apps you can use. Like there's so

many apps out there. Um the calm app, there's like mindfulness, things like that.

Creating like a to-do list and not a to-do list in the sense of like um

you know, like what do I need to get done and like all this stuff, but more so like write down tomorrow's to-do

before bed so your brain doesn't carry the list like into the like the all night and into the next day. So like

that's like that releasing that mental load. um you know kind of just making

small rituals for clocking out. So that's something that I do with with a lot of my clients. Um and what that

looks like is making a list and like that's in their notes on the phone like called clocking out. This is what I this

is what I do. So it's visually there. We know for some people like visuals are really important. It might seem silly

but it works. So, it can't be that silly if it weren't.

I love that. Great examples. Uh, can you share us just an anonymous story of

maybe someone who might look a lot like someone who could be listening to this

this show right now who, you know, has had some of those struggles. Maybe it's

financial stress, maybe it's workrelated stress, relationship stress. And you

know, at first they were hesitant to seek help, but they started to implement some, you know, real baseline

uh strategies or maybe got some additional help and just the impact that it it made on them because I think story

is so powerful and sometimes I think we just as humans we just need to see that it's possible for things to be

different. Um but we just need to an example of of what that looks like. Can you share anything or anything that

comes to mind? Yeah. So, there's a few that come to mind. So,

okay. First thing that comes to my mind is I would say most of the guys I work

with in trades or or even uh in gang and

they're they're brought there. Um they don't want to be there. They want a

quick fix and they want to get out. And I I get that. And I I'm I always say I am human first, therapist second. What

you see is what you get. And I always tell everybody, you didn't get here overnight. So, it's not going to change

overnight. It's not like um the doctor where I'm going to give you like, you know, antibiotics. You take it for 10 days and then poof, it's going to you're

going to feel good. This is long hard work and there's steps

that we can do. And so I had an individual that I worked with

um who unfortunately passed away and from from illness. And so I remember

they came in and they did not want to be there. It was kind of recommended, it

was told to them by their partner um that they, you know, should try

counseling. And they were very quiet and very reserved. And you know, I talked

about, you know, you don't have to be here. Like you really don't. Um like I'm not holding

you here. And so something that really lightened I think the mood was

like them being totally honest and was like listen like I don't really believe in mental health. I think it's like they

said like I think it's BS. I don't even know about counseling. And I'm like you know what? Fair.

Totally fair. You're allowed to have those thoughts. So, my job, I said, was to validate that. I I hear you. And

let's just talk or we can sit in silence for 50 minutes. I'm really good at that. My kiddos really make me work for it

sometimes. So, fast forward, a lot of our conversations were just chitchat. It

was really getting to know one another. And I think some therapists don't work like that. For me, I work from like a

relational standpoint. So what that means is I really really value the relationship and creating a safe space

long term. And so we did a lot of conversation about you know who I am,

who they are, um what's been going on in their dayto-day. And over time

it's created a space to have a conversation. So they came in um for substance use and depression and trauma

and because of being uh in front lines is what what they came in for. And so

it was a tough exterior to not to break, but to kind of pull through because they

created this wall. And I and I'll always say like those coping skills you have, whether they're substance use, whether it's self harm, um whether it's really a

hard exterior wall, it's there to protect you. And so is it a great coping

skill? Not the most healthiest, but it's a coping skill nonetheless. So it's done

its job. So, we can always go back to that coping skill. You've you've got it. You know how it works. We can always use

it. What would it be like to try other ones? What would it be like to maybe dabble in trying different things? What

would it be like? And this is really, really important, and it depends on who you work with, and all therapists obviously should be like this, but

creating that safe space with your client. And if you don't feel safe, I say this to every client. I might not be

the right fit for you, and you might not be the right fit for me. It's a relationship and it is actually

so beneficial to you if I were to say, "Hey, I don't think I'm the best fit for you." If you're going to therapy and you

don't feel like it's a safe space, you don't feel like you can, you know, talk freely without judgment, then that's not

the one for you. And that's okay. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right therapist. And I will always say

this, do not feel like it's your fault. It's just not the right fit. It's the

same as dating. You kind of got to date therapists to figure out who's your good fit. And so that takes time and

reminding yourself that that takes time. And so kind of fast forward in this um this client of mine

uh who's near and dear to my heart, they they did not want to be there. I would say for a good six, seven sessions like

we were not doing any from the outside it wouldn't look like we're beating any goals

but the job was just to create safety and security and so that's what we did

and you know prior to them unfortunately passing away um they were able to they

weren't working like they they were off work because of all this um incidences at work for substance use accidents at

work like the perfect storm arm really. And so, long story short, we were able

to get them to a place of uh not using, which then in turned uh we

did a lot of what's called behavioral activation. So, creating like those baselines of eat, sleep, movement, um

putting things in place to create motivation. They realized that they weren't in the job for them. They switched careers at I

think they were like, let's say, in their late 50s, amazing. and they found what they love to do and

funny enough then on the side they started doing peer support work which was helping well in substance substance

use which is so cool. Um I love I love seeing clients who

you know come come to me for whatever walks of life and whatever reason and they find that they want to support

others and like get into the field in in their own capacity. I absolutely love that.

Such a great story. Haley, this has been such an awesome conversation. I really

appreciate you sharing all your insight. And are there any uh last items that you

want to leave the audience with? Just some key takeaways. I would say

there could be what feels like so many barriers to, you know,

getting counseling or accessing mental health. Um, we know there's stigma, you know, that tough it out culture. We know

that there's, you know, fear of judgment. Timing and scheduling can be so hard, especially if you're traveling,

um, and rotating locations. You know, cost is there. There's there's so many

pieces to it, but take it in small steps.

Make it small, tangible steps. And and always I always say check in with your

burnout. Okay, burnout. It's inevitable. We all go through it. Burnout is like a

cycle. You'll nine times out of 10 probably fall back into burnout one way or

another, multiple times in your life. But stopping that cycle is going to be so important. And learning what does

burnout look like for you. So, for me, it's not um it's kind of seeing clients

as numbers and not as clients being like, I got five today. Okay, got to get through these. Okay, I'm at number four. Okay, one more to go. That's when I know

I'm in a phase of burnout. Another is, you know, uh when my sleep schedule's

off, I'm going to bed later, waking up later, kind of getting to work a little bit too close to time, not setting up in

the way I feel the best. Learn what burnout looks like for you. And I always

say, you know, we hear it all the time, especially in Western culture. Oh, I just need a vacation. They go on vacation. Oh, I feel good. They come

back. Two, three weeks later, they're burnt out again. So, you can keep doing that, but you're still coming back to

the same burnout cycle. So, what does your burnout cycle look like? Acknowledge it and figure out where you

can start putting pauses in place for it to not continue and catching it. So, it's like catching

the bullet is what I like to call it. That's huge. If that's the one takeaway I can give is pay attention to your

burnout. What does that look like? And small tangible steps. It's mental health

sounds big and scary. Mental health support sounds big and scary. Make it small. Small steps. Two steps forward,

one step back. You're still going forward. I love that. Yeah. And I think people can feel so frustrated or defeated when

they feel like they're not making progress or they, you know, fall back. But exactly what you said is it's a

journey and it it is often times, you know, two step forward, one step back. But um this has been so encouraging and

I I think that people find a lot of value from from this conversation. Haley, where can people find you or um

what resources do you provide both to individuals and to corporations? Yeah.

So individual um you can and as well as as corporate you can um email me at

infossomclinicalcounseling.com um or you can visit my website so clinical counseling.com and if you're

interested in working with me you can go to the contact form um if it's speaking

engagements there is um a page on there for speaking engagements you can see

some testimonials uh podcasts and kind of what I offer in uh for companies and

corporations. how it looks and how I can tailor it and then there's a form there. You can feel

free to fill it out and we can get in touch. I love it. We'll post all that in the show notes so that people have that information and can reach out to you. But, you know, part of the mission of this podcast is we just believe that each individual out there has like a unique God-given identity and purpose. And um you know, we all experience challenges in life and we're just here to help each other become that best version of ourselves. And and so these type of conversations I think help achieve that. And I always say like when when I give presentations or or when I you know create content that's focused on you know helping people from a a wholeness and well-being standpoint is you're worth investing in. And I think if I take away anything from this conversation, it's just reinforcing like you are worth investing in each one of us and each one of you listening that you do matter. And so you know you have a support network and um we'd love to be able to serve you and plug you in the right direction. But Thank you so

much Hayley.

This has been a fantastic conversation. We look forward to continued collaboration. Thanks so much.

Awesome. Thank you for having me.