Save Lives:
The Peer-Led Solution to Construction's Silent Crisis

Katie Deal, MPH | MATES North America

Dr. Kevin Rindal | Vimocity

---

RESOURCES

• 988 Lifeline - Help Someone Else

• Suicide Prevention Resource Center

• Effectiveness of the Australian MATES in Construction Suicide Prevention Program: A Systematic Review 

In the trades, the barriers to getting help for mental health run deep: stigma, job insecurity, and a tough-it-out mentality. But that silence is taking a toll. About 46 out of every 100,000 male construction workers die by suicide—that's actually twice the national average. Katie Deal from Mates in Construction has seen what it takes to change the culture around mental health and suicide. Today we're talking about bringing these proven solutions to working athletes in North America. Not only does this need to be industry-led, this needs to be peer-led. It needs to be peers helping peers, or as they say in Australia, "mates helping mates." This is the WorkReady podcast.

Work in the field is tough, and it takes more than muscle to last. Around here, we're building a place where workforce athletes can pick up proven ways to stay strong, earn respect, and lead their crews without burning out. If you want to be a part of that, subscribing is the easiest way to stay connected and keep growing with us.

Hello and welcome to the WorkReady podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kevin Rindal, and today's conversation addresses one of the most urgent and overlooked safety challenges in the construction industry, which is mental health and suicide prevention. Today we're joined by Katie Deal from Mates in Construction North America to unpack a model that has already saved thousands and thousands of lives around the world and is now scaling across the US. We'll talk about why construction is uniquely vulnerable, what makes the Mates model different from traditional programs, and how peer-led, job-site integrated support can fundamentally change the safety culture. Katie, welcome to the Work Ready podcast. It's so great to have you on.

Thanks, Kevin. Good to be here.

So the Mates program—I heard about it maybe a year and a half, two years ago at a conference, and it's actually very prolific in Australia, New Zealand, and now is coming to North America. Can you share with us a little bit more about the background on Mates? How it got started?

Yeah, absolutely. It was started in 2008, so almost 20 years ago, by a plumber named Jorgen, who is now the CEO of Mates in Construction. And it was in response to a couple of things. There was a report that for the first time was showing the disproportionate impact of suicide in the construction industry, and it was also calling for an industry-owned solution. And then Jorgen himself had lost mates, as it were, to suicide. So he had his own kind of suicide-centered lived experience that was kind of driving his own personal passion for this issue. So, and then in 2019, kind of fast forward 11 years, it also went over to New Zealand, and it has spread. It started in Queensland, Australia, and it, during the same time, has spread to some other states in Australia as well. And there has also now been a move from, in addition to having Mates in Construction, there was a similar pilot of taking this to the mining industry as well. And then, like I said, the Mates in Construction program has gone over to New Zealand. So there has been not only kind of more people trained, but kind of the spread of Mates in Construction and then kind of the lifting up of another kind of related prevention program for the mining industry as well.

Yeah. And as I was preparing for this, one of the stats that really stood out to me is that for every one workplace fatality from a job-related task, there are five times the number of people who commit suicide in this field. Can you speak a little bit more about that in the prevalence? And this isn't just unique to the US or Australia or New Zealand. It's not, is it?

It really is a global issue. This is one of the kind of most high-risk industries in terms of suicide in many countries. And, you know, many people here have known of this problem, have seen it firsthand, have experienced it. And kind of adding to that is, for the first time in 2020, we had national level death data showing us the burden of suicide by different industries and showing, for the first time, the significant kind of problem of suicide in the construction and mining industries in particular in the US. And that's data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention or CDC. There have also been kind of other studies as well kind of over the years that have demonstrated this problem. And so the latest data that we have in terms of death by suicide is that about 46 out of every 100,000 male construction workers die by suicide. And yeah, that really is staggering and sobering to me, too. Some people might actually say, 'Okay, that's not that's a problem, but it's not a big problem.' And I think we also need to remember that, number one, those deaths have a ripple effect. They're very significant. That's loss of life that leaves behind many survivors, and it has such, you know, has such an impact. But also I think we need to remember that for every one death by suicide, we also have even more people attempting suicide, making a plan of suicide, or seriously thinking about suicide. And this isn't industry specific data, but just to give us kind of sense of what it could be, we have nationally representative data that show us, just for example, that for one death by suicide, for every one death by suicide, about 325 people seriously think about suicide. So, again, that's nationally representative data. That's not industry specific, but just to kind of give us a sense of the scale. And this can this can all be really devastating. Certainly if there's a death by suicide, but even if there's a suicide attempt, that can result in disability, a job loss, you know, all those kinds of things. And this can impact workplaces as well as families and communities. It can impact productivity on a job site. It can have an economic burden. And certainly I think, most importantly, kind of the the emotional and kind of mental kind of burden of going through this. So it's really kind of an impactful and widespread problem.

Absolutely. And man, again, for the people who work day-to-day with these peers, I mean, sometimes people are spending a substantial more amount of time with their co-workers than they are their own family. And so, I can imagine that for someone on a job, work side by side with people on a day in and day out basis, that's that's pretty impactful. And so is some of the the support after, you know, an attempt for the crews a part of the Mates program?

Yeah. So the Mates program is has a lot of different kind of components to it and it's primarily focused on suicide prevention and early intervention but there there is a part that's focused on postvention. What do you do if a death by suicide does happen on a job site so that you can help the people who have survived that loss and who have, you know, perhaps even witnessed the death, but also help to prevent additional suicides from occurring. There is this kind of concept called contagion where, you know, if we don't kind of react carefully and safely and effectively, there could potentially be even more suicides that occur because the risk of suicide can increase if a death does take place or even if a suicide attempt does take place that doesn't result in death. So, yes, there is that kind of component in the Mates program certainly.

And so from my understanding, it's been construction primarily, you mentioned mining, and then there's going to be a heavy utility focus in the US-based program. Are there any aspects or research related to those industries why that's the area of focus to start out with?

 

There are a lot of strengths in this industry that we can really be building upon, a lot of really beautiful things that already exist that we can be leaning into and kind of strengthening and building, and then a lot of risks that we want to kind of be reducing to the extent that's possible and help people to kind of buffer those risks. And I think that's something that's kind of universal regardless of what industry we're talking about, that there are going to be kind of things that increase and decrease risk no matter which population or industry that we're talking about. But some of the things that are specific here in the construction industry in particular that can increase suicide risk. One is job insecurity. You know, being in between jobs, or maybe you know, you're on a contract right now but you know that's coming to an end and you don't know where your next paycheck's going to come from in a month when this job ends. That can really increase risk. That can be really stressful. It can create financial insecurity. You might have benefits tied in with that job that go away at the end of the job. It might leave you with, you know, without health care, for example. It might take away social connections that you have on the job, like we were just talking about. You spend a lot of time with people at work, especially in this industry where you're working, you know, long hours typically on crews, you know, side by side with, you know, a lot of the crews for a long time. It might take away a sense of purpose. You know, for a lot of people a job, your work can give you that sense of purpose and pride that can be taken away if the job's not there. That can all increase suicide risk.

But also this is a very high-stress, precarious kind of environment that a lot of people are working in. It can be very demanding and stressful. There can be productivity pressures, for example. Folks can be working out in really kind of harsh weather conditions, working in kind of certain particular jobs or trades that are can be dangerous at times. There's also, you know, higher risk of physical injury, of a safety issue happening, and that can lead, I think you know this very well, that can lead to chronic pain that can lead to opioid use or misuse and kind of that cycle can increase risk.

There can also be social isolation and loneliness, even if you are employed and you have, you know, peers around you. You might still even kind of feel socially isolated or lonely, especially if you're a traveler who's left home and you've traveled to a job site and you're living in a trailer and you're not with your family or your friends or your neighborhood and community connections, your church, whatever it is that's kind of back home and that you're not as connected to when you're have traveled to go, you know, spend seven months on a job that's two states away from your home state, for example.

One other risk factor, just as an example, is access to lethal means of suicide. Especially during periods of heightened risk. You know, there are periods where people might kind of be in a suicidal crisis and they have access to a high highly lethal method of suicide like a firearm, for example. That's highly lethal and there's not a lot of time for intervention if they do attempt suicide with something that's very lethal. So those are just a couple examples of risk factors. They're not all unique to this industry, but some certainly are, like the, you know, high stress, precarious environments and those kinds of things.

 

And then one other thing, if you don't mind me kind of adding a little bit more, I know I'm talking a lot, is just culture. You know, this is an industry, and again I don't think it's unique necessarily when you think about kind of some other populations and groups, but in this industry in particular there is cultural factors like toughness and self-reliance, and there can be a lot of stigma in terms of talking about mental health. And so there is a high degree of norms in the construction industry that really pride being tough, being physically resilient, being self-reliant, for example. And that's wonderful. I have two brother-in-laws in the trades, and I think that describes them to a T. And they workers can often be kind of socialized, as it were, Kevin, to suppress any emotional vulnerability. You got to kind of be locked in, focused, focused on productivity. Don't want to admit any kind of weakness or challenge, those kinds of things. And that can foster this kind of 'tough it out' mentality and discourage anyone from seeking help when they actually need it. And that's really that's really hard. And that's something that the Mates program works to kind of chip away at. And the more people kind of internalize these norms, the less likely they are to recognize when they're in distress or when someone else is in distress, and then actually seek help. Even if a mental health service or an EAP is kind of right there and accessible, they're a lot less likely to use it. And so it's tough. You that kind of that cultural piece and stigma and things like that are really kind of tough factors to be up against, but something that the Mates program really tries again to chip away at."

 

Vimocity is more than training. It's a safety and readiness platform trusted by companies to keep their field professionals strong, healthy, and ready for the job. Now, we're launching something new, the Work Ready Community. It's the first online community built exclusively for field employees, a place to connect, learn, and lead the future of our industry. Join us and be part of the movement.

I've had several guests on the WorkReady podcast talk about this issue. Hayley Booker, Jenny Lavin, there have been several who've just just done such a great job with that and addressing this topic. And a consistent theme is that tough-man, tough-woman mentality of like you you don't share your feelings. You don't talk about stuff. You internalize that. You rub dirt on it when you know you're hurting. And how has Mates uniquely been able to overcome some of those maybe social barriers or, you know, address taboo topics or just be able to get people to feel comfortable sharing those feelings of vulnerability, because that's a tough, tough thing to actually do. But, I mean, with 20 years of experience, Mates is kind of a, you know, an early trendsetter in terms of really being able to make change in this space.

Yeah, I mean when I was kind of sharing a few minutes ago about how Mates got started, you know, one thing that Jorgen, the CEO, really felt very strongly about was not only does this need to be industry-led, this needs to be peer-led. It needs to be kind of peers helping peers, or as they say in Australia, mates helping mates. And and that begins with the people that Mates hires. And and we're going through the recruitment process now for our North America pilot team and we are recruiting from the industry. We want people who come from industry who can say, 'Hey, I've been in your boots. I know some of the stressors that you're up against. I know what it's like to kind of be out on a crew or to be in a safety position or, you know, to kind of have those productivity pressures, to go through some of the challenges.' I also know some of the inherent strengths in our industry those kinds of that we can kind of be layering this on top of.

When Mates comes on site to do things like deliver trainings, they are training and building capacity of construction workers, and we're not expecting them to suddenly become mental health clinicians. What we're doing is empowering them to provide peer support, which is just this amazing, beautiful thing that starts to happen. And this is also a male-dominated industry to start to see, particularly men kind of reaching out and offering help to other men in particular. I mean, it's it's beautiful when anyone does it, but I think it's especially cool to see, you know, to see guys start to do this. You know, a lot of those kind of masculine norms and things started to be softened a bit.

 

And so that capacity building is is teaching folks, one, this is a problem. But it doesn't just stop at that. It doesn't just stop at that awareness. We want people to be aware that suicide and mental health are issues, but we also want them to feel hopeful that they can do something about this and motivated to go take action. That's basically the first layer of training. But then from there, there's kind of a smaller subset of folks on a job site who go through additional trainings where they really learn more specifically how to look out for each other, how to look out for signs that someone might be struggling. 'Hey Kevin, you haven't been at work in a couple days or you've mentioned you've been drinking more or, you know, you went through a divorce last year.' You know, those kinds of things. 'You're still on your opioid medication after six months. How you doing? You've had some near misses on the job,' etc. They learn how to look out for those signs that someone might be thinking of suicide or just at an increased risk of suicide. Maybe they're not having those thoughts, but they're their risk is higher. And they learn how to start a conversation, which is easier said than done. And the Mates team helps train them on how to do that. But, you know, a lot of times these folks, they already know how to kind of be there for each other in other ways. Maybe they're already kind of natural helpers in other aspects on the job. And what we're doing is kind of empowering them to learn specifically about suicide risk and mental health and these kinds of things. But they already kind of have a lot of natural strengths on how to be there for each other, which is really cool to lean into.

And then they learn how to, as they start that conversation, introduce the topic of, 'Hey, how's your mental health these days? Hey, you mentioned drinking or drugs or whatever. You know, can we kind of lean into some of those things?' And and how to ask the question, 'Are you thinking about suicide?' And asking that question doesn't increase suicide risk. There's kind of a myth out there that it, you know, you might plant the idea, you don't. In fact, you're more likely to find that if someone is already thinking about it, they're going to feel relieved that you're asking them about that and you're giving them a safe place to land. And when you ask them about it, sometimes all they need is a conversation. But there's also part of this program where we know how to refer them to professional help. But all of this asking, offering help, providing peer support, that's all being done by volunteer construction workers, which is really so cool. That's the magic, I think, of this program is we have people who show up on site and do that capacity building and we have case management as well, but a lot of the doing, that peer support, that connection on the ground, that is construction workers who have volunteered to go through this program, which I think is amazing.

And I would imagine that for most construction workers, if they are struggling, they're going to feel more comfortable speaking with a peer maybe than somebody who might be in a leadership role or maybe a safety role, just because they don't know what the repercussions might be or maybe they have some fear around it. Do you find that that's a factor in the effectiveness of doing a peer-led model?

Yeah, absolutely. We were doing an evidence scan this past summer to kind of make sure that, you know, Mates really aligned with the need here and kind of what the field was craving and what could be effective here and all of that. And part of what we found is, just taking just mental health, I'm not talking about kind of other risk factors for suicide, but just if someone's experiencing a mental health challenge like depression or anxiety, for example, which are two of the most common mental health challenges that people can face, most construction workers don't ask for help. They don't raise their hand and say, 'Hey, I'm struggling and I need help and I'm willing to access some kind of professional support.' That's not necessarily surprising, but it does absolutely break my heart. It just really is like, 'Oh my gosh, okay, we have some barriers to start kind of tearing down here.' And the most common barriers to people help seeking or seeking help for themselves are stigma, you know, and fear of job loss. They're they're scared that if they if they raise their hand and say, 'Hey, I need some help,' they're going to be seen as weak or not capable of doing their jobs, not reliable, etc. There's also a distress or distrust, excuse me, of healthcare providers. They're kind of seen as these outsiders who may not understand what it's like to be a construction worker and kind of have the challenges, health issues, etc. that construction workers can face. And then there's also limited access to care during working hours. Construction workers tend to work some pretty long hours, and doing really hard work and, you know, long shifts, overtime, etc. They might be kind of out in a rural area and, you know, 30 minutes out, you know, from a trailer where there's not even anywhere to have a private telehealth appointment or to call the 988 crisis lifeline. Those kinds of things. And so, it's it's really complicated and and there are a lot of barriers, like I said, to kind of be working on here, but absolutely, they're more likely to feel comfortable talking to a peer and to have a conversation with a peer. And then if they need professional services like mental health counseling, substance use treatment, maybe some financial assistance or whatever, they're more likely to access that care if a peer helps connect them. And that's part of the Mates program as well is, 'Hey, I'm here as a peer, but if it seems like you might need more help than I can provide, I'm not a professional in this space, then I can kind of link you to someone who can get you that professional support.' And that's where our case management comes in."

 

Okay, that's, I'm glad you touched on that. One of the things that you said earlier is about the substance abuse. So maybe it's the opioids or drugs and alcohol. And man, a consistent theme that I've heard in talking with people is that there's kind of this negative cycle that happens where, you know, we know that like 40% of all injuries just fit into like musculoskeletal. Oftentimes, you know, there's pain involved. We've done through Vimosity surveys and find that about 80% of the workforce, if you just say, 'Do you have pain in some area of their body?' They're like, 'Yeah, my back, my shoulder, my knee.' And it's kind of a slippery slope because, you know, often times you need to provide for your family. You're working hourly so you don't get PTO. And so like if if you take time off of work, you know, to actually care for an injury or something that's, you know, painful and brewing, you're not going to get compensated for that. And so it tends to lead to, 'Now what do I need to do to medicate myself so that I can continue to show up?' And, you know, the stats are not great when it comes to opioid use. It's like within seven days of of taking those, your risks of actually getting off of opioids is dramatically reduced. It it really quickly becomes a dependency. So, what role do you see, you know, substance abuse playing in this whole issue that we're talking about? And it sounds like you people contact EAPs sometimes they have some support for substance abuse, but is there anything specific that Mates maybe focuses on related to to substance abuse?

Yeah, that's a great question, Kevin. So, um, one, just in terms of just a data piece for a moment, is, um, you know, there are a number of suicides where what people do is they overdose on opioids, um, or, you know, other drugs, um, and that's kind of the method that they use to attempt suicide. Um, there are also a number of suicides where there was another method used, but, um, tox reports show the presence of opioids in the system. So there, you know, that was kind of still involved in some way, shape or form. Um, there are also a number of opioid related deaths that are possibly suicides, but there's not necessarily evidence of intent to die, um, evidence that it actually was a suicide attempt, as it were. And so they're, um, labeled as an opioid, um, kind of related death that actually potentially could have been labeled as a suicide.

And you know how I mentioned in the Mates model, you know, peers start as they kind of go through their capacity building and they go through this these levels of training, the peers on the ground start to have conversations. They start to kind of notice, they, you know, they they know how to kind of look out for each other, notice signs that someone might be struggling and start these conversations. That's absolutely kind of at the heart of the model is we want to make sure that we are finding people who are having those thoughts of suicide and get them into kind of crisis intervention and supports that can help bring that risk down and prevent them from attempting suicide.

 

Sometimes though, people aren't necessarily in a suicidal crisis where they're actively thinking about suicide. Maybe they're even making a plan for suicide. Maybe they're not in that crisis mode, but where they are is their risk of suicide is increased. So maybe, you know, they're have they're struggling with substance misuse, maybe they have mental illness, maybe they're going through some financial stressors, maybe there's some housing stab instability, maybe they've recently had a loss, a death of a loved one, or they've gone through a divorce, for example. These things can all kind of potentially increase suicide risk. And so when the folks who are trained on the ground kind of are having these conversations, um, any of those things could result in someone saying, 'Yeah, actually, I could use some help in these areas,' whether that's I need some suicide crisis intervention or substance use treatment, for example.

 

So, something that then happens is a network of safety essentially is kind of built on a job site as people kind of go through this training and capacity building and they know how to contact their Mates case manager. The Mates case manager's job is to have a referral network available. They kind of build that when they start working with a particular site. They developed this referral network so they can help someone navigate the available services and supports that professionals can offer to them. So that case manager doesn't provide those services. They're more kind of a, 'I'm going to walk alongside you and help you understand what your options are and how you can access what you need.' And sometimes people need more than one thing. They might need substance use treatment and they might need something else at the same time. That's all right. So the case manager's job is to help kind of understand what their needs are and kind of navigate the services and supports accordingly and kind of think through potential barriers. You know, 'Do you need to drive to an appointment or can be a telehealth appointment? If it's telehealth, where's a place on site where you can have a private conversation?' And what does that look like when it's a trailer and a bunch of trucks? You know, kind of what are the options so that you can kind of access the care, you know, that you need.

And I would imagine, Katie, I'd love to get your perspective on this, but I would imagine that as people start to become more aware of this issue, maybe they start to see those earlier signs and just have conversations before it even gets to suicidal ideation. And they see, you know, you can start to help people and help peers when it's just stress and you feel like you're a bucket and you've just got all this water pouring in like you you talked about of like, you know, marriage, finances, housing, travel, all this stuff starts to become overwhelming and and you know, I would imagine the ideal situation would be we start supporting each other much earlier in the process so that it never gets there. Is that in a way part of the Mates ideology?

 

It is. It is. We always need to make sure, this is just me talking about suicide prevention generally. Yeah. And certainly this is the heart of the Mates model, too. We always need to be prepared if there if a death by suicide does occur. That's the postvention piece. And we absolutely need to be prepared for crisis response. But yes, the more kind of up upstream, as it were, that we can go, I think the better. And that's kind of what this model embodies is that we have kind of the the downstream postvention, the midstream crisis intervention and the upstream. So, that way we kind of cover all of our bases and we work as much as we can towards that upstream of, 'I see some early signs that you might be at risk of suicide. Let's have a chat.' That's not exactly how the conversation may sound, but that's the essence of it. Absolutely. And, you know, we we care about you. You don't have to be in crisis only for me to kind of reach out and show you support. But absolutely, if you know someone is in that kind of crisis state, we, you know, we need to kind of get them, you know, into help as soon as possible as well.

Yeah. And you've used the term capacity a few times. Can you explain a little bit more of like what you see as building capacity surrounding this topic in the workforce?

Yeah, this might be a good time for you for me just to kind of dig in a little bit about how the model works on the ground. Is that okay? So, you know, as I mentioned, the folks that we recruit into the kind of forward-facing role, which we call the Field Officer, they come from industry. You know, these are folks who generally have worked in the trades in some capacity. Maybe they've been a safety leader. They, you know, they they bring in that experience and that ability to kind of navigate a job site, kind of know who to talk to, how to talk about it. And the first thing that they do is start building relationships and they listen and they learn. They want to understand the daily rhythms of a job site. They want to understand if they're talking to an employer, for example, who's your client? What kind of job are you working on? What are the trades? Is this union? Is this non-union? What's your culture like? What's your safety culture like? That kind of thing. And they begin to meet with the folks on the ground about what program delivery can look like in a way that kind of leans into what's possible on a job site. They're all different. And so it might be possible to come in and kind of do these very kind of nice, neat, discreet trainings, for example. It might mean I have to spread these out over the course of five visits. And that's okay, too, as long as it's, you know, kind of feasible for our team.

And so, and the first level of training is called General Awareness Talk. And that's about an hour long. That's meant to be for most, if not everyone, on a job site. That's also the most customizable. And so, the Field Officer will also say, 'All right, here's what I'm going to cover in the General Awareness Talk. Do you want it like it is, or should we customize this in any way? We could talk about some local data. We can talk about your safety culture and how this embeds, you know, how this can be embedded in that,' those kinds of things. And they can kind of customize the content. And then they start to plan out what training delivery will look like. And there are three levels of trainings. That General Awareness Talk, which is about an hour of, 'Hey everyone, or most everyone, this is a problem. We want you to feel a little almost angry about it. You know, this is a problem. We want you to feel fired up. This is unacceptable and we need to do something about it. We want you to feel hopeful that you can do something about it and motivated to be part of the solution.

This is all, by the way, these trainings are delivered on site by this by Field Officers, and at the end of that hour-long training, they say, 'All right y'all,' well, I say y'all, they may not. 'All right, y'all. The next level of training is called Connector. Who wants to be part of it?' And they get show of hands, kind of who would like to be part of this next level of training, which is where the Field Officer comes back for half a day now and starts to really dig in of, 'How do you know if someone might be suicidal? How do you know if they're struggling with their mental health?' And kind of like a a 101, 201 kind of level, like, 'How do you kind of build that awareness and kind of light skill development in that?' And that's for about 5% of a workforce. And that's kind of, are these peer workers? It's not just for like leadership.

No, this is and it's for anybody and it's a call for volunteers because we want people to feel intrinsically motivated to do this, to be part of this, and usually there's no shortage of hands actually. It's really cool to see. And so, yeah, we tend to get enough volunteers who are willing to, you know, they're still we're still talking construction workers. They're not going to suddenly become mental health clinicians through these trainings. That's not the intent. But what they're going to do through this Connector training, and then there's one more, is learn how to be those peer supports. Learn how to look out for signs that someone might be struggling and kind of, you know, broach them with a conversation and offer peer support, all of that. And then that's about, like I said, about 5% of a work workforce. So there's kind of line of sight to these connectors, and they get a hard hat sticker. So you know you can kind of look around and you can see, 'Oh, who's been trained in this? Who's kind of a safe place to land, as it were? Who's someone that if I actually wanted to raise my hand and say, I'm struggling, I need help. This is someone I know who's gone through this training.' And the sticker is just like this really non-verbal easy way to kind of know who's gone through it.

 

And then a couple people per site go through what's called ASIST, Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training. And that's more like a CPR, a little more kind of, it's a two-day more intensive skills training of, 'If someone is suicidal, how do you have that conversation? You know, are you suicidal? Have you made a plan?' Like you can kind of get into kind of more detail about that. 'And would you be willing to create a safety plan to keep you safe for now while we connect you? You're going to need some professional supports here if you're willing to, you know, kind of go with me and make a phone call, but how do we keep you safe for now?' And then they learn how to kind of connect to our case manager and kind of be part of that network of safety.

 

So, these multi-layers of training build that awareness, they build more knowledge, they build more motivation, they build skills, and that's what I mean by capacity. These the folks who go through these trainings are at the end of them more capable of noticing and responding and helping and connecting than they are before they go through the trainings. And we now have enough research coming out of Australia and New Zealand to show this works. And not only do people start offering help more, people who before may not have raised their hands to say, 'I need help. I want to seek help.' We also start seeing increases in help seeking as well because what happens is conversations start happening. Stigma starts getting chipped away at. Culture starts to change slowly. I mean, we're talking, you know, we're taking a big ship and we're turning it slowly, one bite out of the elephant at a time, whatever analogy you want to use, but slowly over time, those things start to change as well. And so, and again, that's I think where the real magic happens, Kevin, is once that capacity building happens, the so what is people start to use that knowledge. They start to use those skills to make change on site.

Katie, I'd love to hear maybe a story from the ground level in Australia or New Zealand of just what that looks like in practice. Is there a good story that you could share with us?

Yeah, that's a great question. One of my favorite stories is it comes from we we did a webinar a couple months ago on Mates and filmed a segment for it with two gentlemen from Australia. One is a Field Officer who comes from Mates who's the one who shows up on site to build relationships and plan the program and deliver the trainings. And one of the things they do, by the way, is after they train these Connectors and these ASIST-trained workers is they don't just leave and go, 'All right, go forth and start using your skills.' They are available. They're just a phone call away. If folks say, 'All right, I just went through your training, but now I actually got to start talking about suicide.' Oh, you know, or, 'Hey, I'm, you know, I'm trying to use my new skills. Can I call you and ask you a couple of questions? Or can I share a proud moment with you?' These Field Officers remain available to provide kind of ongoing support to the people that they train, which I think is super cool and really effective for helping people to use their new skills and to feel confident in using them and equipped to use them.

Anyway, so we filmed this segment between a Connector and who was trained and the Field Officer who trained them, and it's just really powerful to hear them talk about not only the relationship that they built as the kind of trainer and trainee, as it were. But they they talk about the power of becoming a Connector and being able to start feeling confident and equipped to start kind of not like really looking out probably in a different way than you did before through your peers. And, you know, there are countless stories like that from Australia and New Zealand where, you know, people talk about just that this kind of new ability that they gained of going through a training like this. Much like you might kind of coming out of a CPR class or something where you're like, 'Oh my gosh, look at what I can do now. This is so practical and hands-on and really amazing that I can do this and be prepared if someone does, you know, need my help in this area.

And you know, they just there are stories about, you know, 'I have these new knowledge and skills and I've been able to kind of go and help somebody because they were in a crisis or because they weren't necessarily in crisis, but, you know, they still needed some support or, you know what, they actually didn't need a professional. They needed 10 minutes to sit down and not worry about productivity and just have someone listening to them. And that's what they needed that day.' And that was really powerful. And in all of these stories, you talk, especially to from me, from my perspective, as a female, to hear men talking about this kind of gets me really excited because that's not always what you kind of hear men kind of talking about and being excited about. But women, too, you know, kind of sharing these perspectives. And I think it's just really speaks to the power of that kind of peer-to-peer connection and support that's enabled when you go through a program along these lines."

 

Equating it to first aid or CPR training I think is is a great way to think about it too because man, if there's a crisis and you have that skill, it's I mean, so impactful in in that situation and sometimes you just don't realize how many people surrounding you may have mental health issues or things that they want to talk about or, you know, suicidal ideation. And man, when you have that skill and the training, it just it equips you to be available in that moment when when the crisis is happening. So that's that's awesome.

And I'm really excited that this is coming to North America. Can you share a little bit more about this whole process, where we're at in the process and how that came to be?

 

So just a little bit of a backstory. You know, I I shared earlier on about the data. That was a real kind of prompt, you know, when we kind of first had that national level death data showing us suicide rates by occupation was a real eye-opener, I think, for a lot of folks, myself included. You know, I've been in this field a long time and suddenly, you know, the the data is right in front of me. And it was it was really powerful to see kind of alongside that there were, you know, kind of other studies and also just firsthand knowledge that people had of like, 'Yeah, we know this is an issue. We didn't necessarily need the data, you know, to kind of show us or maybe the data just kind of solidified what we already knew.' And so kind of alongside kind of more data collection showing us this is a problem was just kind of a growing need and readiness for suicide prevention within the industry.

 

And that includes that includes Quanta Services. So Quanta is this US-based construction and energy company with capabilities that really span the industry. They have built the largest craft labor force in North America. They have about 300 operating companies across North America and actually a couple in Australia, which is one of the reasons they first heard about the Mates program. Some of the operating companies of Quanta in Australia have implemented Mates and have had great success and have seen positive results with that. And when Matt Comer and others at Quanta in in Houston, where they're headquartered, we're thinking, 'All right, what can we do about this problem of suicide? We want a comprehensive and evidence-based and scalable and sustainable suicide prevention program. What's that going to be?' They approached Mates about a partnership. And they knew, and Mates said, 'You know, this whole time this we're not just coming over for Quanta, this has to be for all of industry.' You know, I was talking earlier about how, you know, in Australia, it's not just for employers. It's not just employers or contractors who pay for this either. It's kind of a all-in suicide prevention is everybody's business. We all it's shared responsibility, pulled resource model. And so from day one, it was, you know, we've got to get industry engagement, etc. And make sure that this will become available for kind of the whole industry.

But we also knew that we needed to pilot this and kind of be careful. There's a lot on the line if you don't get suicide prevention right. And so to get ready for that, we've had to do with a couple of things. I call it the red pen phase. We had to kind of look at the entire model, not just the content of those trainings or how we do case management, but the funding model, the workforce model, the evaluation framework. We tore it all apart and we said, 'All right, what what if anything do we need to adapt? All right, we know we need to adapt some of this because of the North American context. What can we keep as is and what do we need to kind of test, you know, kind of in a pilot phase?' And so we've been getting ready with developing a funding model, a workforce model, recruiting a workforce, which we're doing now, developing an evaluation framework. We're currently seeking an external evaluator. Those kinds of things.

We also needed to select the pilot sites. So there'll be six of Quanta's operating companies in North America participating in the pilot. And there's a range of where they are geographically, what trades are represented, union status, those kinds of things. So, we wanted to pressure test this thing in a number of different kind of settings within within the industry. And and then also carrying out those adaptations before we get into the pilot mode. And so, when we begin in March, that will be when our Field Officers start that initial engagement that I was talking about. That's when they're going to start their relationship building and early kind of site engagement and start working with the pilot sites on kind of planning for the delivery on the ground over the next 12 months. And alongside the implementation of pilot will be this evaluation that I was referencing. So we know how this all goes. Do we get the adaptations right? What kind of region impact did we have? Do we need to make any course corrections before we scale this and roll it out more broadly across Quanta and for the greater industry from there?"

 

You said used two words: sustainability and scalability, and I think with any initiative those are the key things that have to be present because, you know, you talk to people and they're like, 'Oh, it's the flavor of the month. We're rolling out a new new program.' And there are so many things that are rolled out and then they just never get legs. They never get the momentum. What's different from a scalability and a sustainability standpoint with Mates that, you know, over the last 20 years, you've you've honed in on how to make this something that really is impactful and it lasts?

Yeah, I'm so glad you're asking this question. A few things come to mind. One is that the model itself, it's not kind of a fly in, fly out, 'Here's a one-time training or awareness talk.' Those things are incredibly important. But what's more effective, generally speaking, is when you have something that's really multi-layered that's supported with leadership and policy that can be really embedded within culture and systems and and those kinds of things. So, you know, just in the pilot itself, which we're, you know, it's a 12-month pilot, that will not be the end of implementation. When you come to the 12-month mark, that's not some suddenly just like the end of the program, but in that just in that 12-month period, that it begins with site engagement and relationship building and really listening so that this program can be layered in in a way that reflects work site culture, safety culture, and really become embedded. Where suicide and suicide prevention can be just kind of normalized in conversation, where leadership gets on board, where crews get on board, and it's multiple levels of training. It's capacity building. It's that ongoing support. It's that ongoing post, uh, case management, postvention, as needed. It's got multiple programs that kind of span over the course of time, and that gives people time to really kind of wrap their heads around this tough topic and build capacity to address it and start chipping away at culture, which I think is probably one of the most important things for sustainability. It's not, 'All right, I I took an hour course and I I learned I learned some important information and I gained a few new skills, but I'm going right back to business as usual and I don't feel supported to actually put my skills to use or apply what I've learned. And so I think that's just kind of a part that's inherent in the model itself.

And then the workers themselves, as they get trained, that knowledge and the skill set that they gain through their training, for example, that stays with them, and if they go on to another project six months later with another employer or another client, for example, they bring the knowledge and skills with them to that new site. They might also, and this happens a lot in Australia, New Zealand, they might also bring a request to that new employer or client, 'Hey, can we bring Mates here too?' And that helps with scalability and sustainability. That kind of grassroots, ground-up, employer-driven interest and spread. And that's definitely what's been, I think, a key element for success in Australia is in New Zealand is employees saying, 'We want this. We need this. We will benefit from this.' And that's something that we're really envisioning here kind of past the pilot phase as we look ahead to scaling this and rolling this out more broadly. Is having those workers be almost like ambassadors for the program and kind of driving that interest and that change that they want, you know, the change that they want to see.

The the funding model also kind of lends itself to scalability and sustainability. In Australia, they have really diversified their sources of funding, and it's a shared responsibility kind of tips some of money in the pot, pooled resource model where you see over there you have employers and contractors. You have unions and trade associations and others from industry putting in money. You also have government and foundations and others kind of putting in money to support this as well. It's not fee for service. So that if you called me and you said, 'Hey, I'm an employer or a contractor and I'm really interested in bringing Mates to my job site. Can I be part of this?' I would say great. And if you can put some money in the hat, great. But if that's a barrier, we don't want that to be a barrier. Or if you can't give as much as, you know, somebody else, that's okay because we want that model to be able to kind help all boats rise and allow as many people to participate in the program as possible. And that's been kind of a key element of sustainability across the pond that we're trying to replicate here.

Man, there's so many key takeaways there. I I do think that that employee-embraced aspect of this is crucial because when it's the frontline employees who are advocating for this and they're promoting it, if they move from one job to another or one company to another, I mean, that's such a great way to continue to see this grow and then removing those barriers from a financial standpoint is just such a cool model. I'm interested in terms of like some of the maybe the trade schools or line colleges or apprenticeship programs. Are you starting to also get in at that those early stages of frontline workers' careers so that this becomes the way that they've always done it? Because I could imagine a lot of people are like, 'Man, I wish we would have had that when I started out 20 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Not quite yet in the pilot, but we potentially will add a national lineman college in either into the pilot or kind of early on in the rollout phase for just that reason, right? We want to kind of make this just one of one of the key priorities and kind of business as usual. This is something that we, you know, kind of start learning about early on in our careers. We know it's important. We know what to do about it. That kind of thing. So, absolutely, it's on the radar, and we will be bringing it to those folks as soon as we can. Yeah.

And because I imagine a lot of people going through school or going through their apprenticeship, they don't maybe have even a perspective that this is a problem. And so just being able to have that conversation early on would be so powerful. So the timeline then, so in 2026 starting in March, that's when some of this stuff is going to start rolling out in North America. If there are people listening who maybe are not a part of that pilot and they want more information in terms of like as the information rolls in as you start to refine things from North American perspective, what are how can they reach out to find out more information or what the next steps might be to to bring it to their organization?

 

Yeah. Well, one is I'm going to give you two websites. We have a brand new, I'm calling it like the baby website, version 1.0, I know, of the Mates North America Pilot website, and then there's also the kind of main Mates in Construction website. The reason I'm encouraging you to check out both is on the Mates North America website. We'll keep adding to that and you'll be able to kind of learn more about the program, where the pilot is taking place, and follow along on the journey, and also know how to get in touch directly with me if you would like to have further conversation. The second is the Mates in Construction website shows you kind of even more information about the program model and all of the research that's been conducted. So if you want to geek out on data the way that I love to, and you want to learn much more about the research that's been conducted, the impact that this has had in Australia and New Zealand, etc., that's a great place to also go. But definitely start checking it out, follow along. We have a social media presence now for Mates North America pilot and you can call me anytime. This is I think a perfect time to start learning about this program. It's going to be 2027 before we know it, and that's when the program should be available for kind of scaling and rolling out from there.

What are some ways that people can start to address this even if they don't formally take the steps to start with Mates right out of the gate?

Yeah. So, you know, Mates makes this this really kind of comprehensive multi-level thing. And I think in an ideal world, you do all of those things at once. But just take awareness building, for example. That can be a place to start. You know, do people even on your site know that this is a problem? Do they think if if they think know it's a problem, do they think it's preventable? So, there are ways you can kind of start building in this topic into safety meetings, into leadership meetings. You know, you can kind of bring in a speaker to kind of just help, you know, do some initial education about this topic. There is also a really cool online self-paced training called Start by a company called Living Works. I think it's about $30 or $40 a person where you can go and just kind of get the very intro on, you know, what are some warning signs that someone might be, you know, thinking about suicide. So things like that to just kind of start that initial awareness raising, that that initial education and kind of get some wheels turning and get kind of people kind of more on board that this is a problem and then you can kind of work on building readiness to actually do something about it.

 

You can also start promoting resources that people can access if, you know, if there is a need. That might be the the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline, for example, which is a national network of local crisis centers. It might be the employee assistance program. It might be a union's member assistance program, for example. And kind of making these resources available so people can start learning about them. And then working on actually helping people to kind of be willing to to make those phone calls if they need help.

Katie, in preparation for this conversation, you and I talked about serious injury and fatality prevention. So sometimes we call it SIF prevention. I know with Quanta they talk about the capacity model. So it's just this whole idea of identifying high energy hazards and putting the right direct controls in place so that people, you know, can avoid serious injuries and fatalities and those life-altering situations. I would imagine though that if if companies were taking a more human-centered approach to safety that also included, you know, focusing on like a Mates program, the psychological safety, the overall mental wellness, that person is probably also going to perform at a higher level in terms of the SIF prevention and there may actually be a correlation where we see fewer SIFs just because we're investing more in the human component. Is there any research that might support that?

Absolutely. So, going back to the data for just a moment. You know, we were talking about the death data kind of towards the top of the call that, you know, most deaths by suicide in this industry are by by men. And the latest data show us about 46 out of every 100,000 male construction workers died by suicide. And I've used the word disproportionate, I think, a couple of times. And what I mean by that is that that 46 out of every 100,000, which is about 3,300 men per year, that's actually twice the national average of suicide. And it is also about five times higher than the rate of workplace fatalities. So that's kind of think part of this conversation here.

 

And absolutely we need to look at people holistically. We can't just look at physical health and kind of separate that from mental health or mental health without physical health. It all kind of goes hand in hand. And what we've seen in the research from Mates in Australia and New Zealand is many positive kind of outcomes come out of this program. But one of the one of them is that when we do a good job at preventing suicide and improving mental health, we also do a really good job of helping people to show up at work and to be productive and to be focused on the job, which is really cool, and that also saves money. So it comes down to the bottom line as well, by the way, that people who have this program on the ground and are investing in this program see a good economic return as well.

That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And Katie, this has been such a good conversation. I really appreciate this and you've really helped us understand a little bit more about just the scale of this issue within the trades. It's been heavy, you know, talking about this, but at the same time, there's there's so much hope in it because we know that when we have a system, when we have a focus, and when we get peers involved, it can be really effective. Is there any final story or or thing you'd like to share just about the outcomes related to this and how it's made a difference especially in Australia and New Zealand because I think for us, as we think about expansion into North America, it's exciting to think about bringing something like this to the workforce.

 

Yeah. Well, we're really feeling so optimistic about this pilot because of its potential. And we we draw on that optimism from not only the excitement and support and all of that that we're finding here in North America, but also from the research and the outcomes that we see from Australia and New Zealand. And over the years a number of studies have been conducted and you can find them on the Mates in Construction website. But in short, it works. It it helps people and that does that in a lot in several ways. One is it helps people to have conversations around mental health. It improves what we call mental health literacy. It gives them kind of more of a vocabulary and a more comfort talking about this topic. It helps people offer help more, that help-offering behavior, and it helps people raise their hand and seek help.

And I have my own kind of suicide-centered lived experience. I have been in the position of needing help and really having a hard time saying, 'Yeah, I need help.' It's a really hard thing to do for a lot of reasons. And it is amazing to see both the help offering and the help seeking both go up after this program is on the ground. See changes in culture, improvements in like I said, presenteeism, productivity, bottom line, you know, economic cost, those kinds of things. And then I think the most important things, it's it's saving lives. It's preventing people from attempting suicide. It's preventing those deaths. And then that all prevents the impact of those things as well, the economic cost of those things, the emotional toll of those that those things can take, the increase in suicide risk that those things can lead to, etc. So it's really powerful to see kind of all the data that's been collected and then all the stories, too, that layer on top of all of the data of, you know, the personal stories of lives that have been touched and impacted and saved kind of through this program. And so that kind of is what keeps me going and gets me so so excited about this opportunity that we have to pilot this program here.

And then can I just say one more thing in closing? Is that all right? If by any chance there is someone listening to this when they whenever they are listening to this and is either thinking about suicide or death or hurting themselves or is just struggling emotionally. Trust me, I know how hard it is to say, 'I need help,' to maybe even recognize that those are the thoughts that you're having, but help is out there. You don't have to be part of this Mates program to to get help for yourself. And you don't have to be part of this program to help somebody else. Those are things that we can all start doing now. We can reach out and start a conversation with somebody. We can call the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. It is open 24/7. If you can't make a phone call, you can send a text. They have an online chat system. They have a press one option if you're also a veteran. There's a an option if you speak Spanish. So, there are resources out there. There are employee assistance programs. There are kind of a multitude of resources that are out there. And so I just encourage you to really consider using one of those if you're in that place or if you have someone in mind who you think might need a hello, how you doing from a mate, then please reach out.

Katie, that's a great wrap up. Thank you for the work that you're doing and bringing a solution to this industry that's not only proven and practical, but is really focused on that human aspect. And your leadership is making a real difference for the people who need it most. So, thank you very much.

If this conversation resonated with you, please take a moment to subscribe to the Work Ready podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcast or Spotify and leave a review. What we found is that fewer than 4% of listeners actually subscribe, and when you do, it directly helps us continue bringing these meaningful high-impact conversations to the people who keep the world moving. Katie and I are going to continue this conversation inside the Vimocity Work Ready Community. So if you're a workforce athlete or someone who supports them and you want to connect with others in the trades who are committed to maximizing human performance, safety, and career longevity, this community is for you. It's 100% free. We're just getting it launched, and so I'm excited to extend this conversation with Katie there and share additional free resources to support your journey. If you go to the show notes, you can find out some more information on how you can create an account to join the Vimocity WorkReady Community. Like I said, it's totally free.

Thank you so much for joining us, and until next time, remember, you are worth investing in. Work hard, take care of your people, and stay work ready.