From Burnout to Purpose

Speakers
Ken Lulow | Line Worker Solutions

Dr. Kevin Rindal | Vimocity

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View The Transcript

What do you do when the people around you tear you down instead of build you up?

Today's guest shares how the early

years of his apprenticeship were marked by toxic crews, long hours, and a culture that treated pain and exhaustion as a badge of honor. Instead of walking away, he doubled down on his values, found mentors who were leading differently, and he built a career centered around purpose, brotherhood,

and service. Now, after 25 years in the line trade, he's helping crews see themselves as athletes and leaders capable of more than just surviving and instead leading and thriving.

When did you feel the most alive at work? Lead with that purpose. It'll change your life.

This is the WorkReady Podcast.

Dr. Kevin here and I just want to personally thank you for being a part of this community. It means the world to us and without you we wouldn't exist. The only favor that I will ever ask is that you like or subscribe to the work ready podcast as this ensures that we can continue to grow this community and bring these amazing guests and conversations to you each week. Thank you so much. Now let's get to work.

Hello and welcome to the WorkReady podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kevin Rindal. So happy to be here today with my good friend Ken Lulow. Ken and I have known each other for the past several years and I've just gained such

a great appreciation for you, your leadership, and um just your innovation in the uh in the industry. Ken has been in the trades for over 25 years. started out as an apprentice and worked

his way up and has held many safety leadership operational roles throughout his career and now is doing consulting with different utility companies all across the United States

through Line Worker Solutions. So Ken, so good to have you on the call today.

Yeah, thank you Kevin and thanks for the kind introduction and it's always been a pleasure to work with you and have find an individual that's um such an inspiration too for for the trades and such an advocate for uh a better future

for everybody and I just appreciate taking the time and opportunity to sit down and chat with you.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that, man. Well, Ken, let's start off right from the very beginning because you have I mean you're brought up in the trades and it's it's pretty much what your life has been. Tell us a little bit more about where you grew up and and how you first got exposed to the trades.

Yeah. So, third generation line worker. Uh my grandfather was a line worker and

my my real father was a electrician. stepfather was a line worker and I spent majority of my uh teenage years with my mom and stepfather. So, it's really all that I knew or the electrical industries all I knew. And uh they were a little

more the old school kind of um line workers there. Not always the best role models either. I wasn't necessarily intending to go down that path. Just having that exposure and the interaction with the group and with the other, you know, peers that line workers that would come over and the camaraderie that they had and that sense of duty about, you

know, getting out during storms and it was, you know, it was really intriguing

and it really that's what really drew me to that this industry and uh and through

like a series of events like I honestly I wanted to be a a firefighter. That was my dream, just to dress up in in the

uniform and save kittens and without fires.

And uh I'm really glad that I didn't go that route and that I did take this route because it's been extremely

rewarding career for me and it's just the individuals that I've built

relationships with and the lives that you get to interact with is is super

rewarding. And um and you do build those those bonds and those relationships in

this industry. And um you know, I've always been in the Northwest for the majority of my life. A little bit in the

New Mexico South area, Southwest area, but most of it's been Northwest. Most of

my working career been here. And it's been a uh interesting journey to get to

this point. And um you know the one that's been full of twists and turns and

there's always been a reward at some point uh to get to this journey and and just being

exposed to line work and I can't really fix a whole lot on the car. I can, you

know, work on the power system and it's just like uh part of what's ingrained

into me and and uh just uh I don't even really know

how to how to explain it. that bond that you have with your peers other than what

I would maybe say like sports teams like the this bond you build on sports team or maybe even like in the military you

overcome all these challenges and obstacles to do the impossible and face all those conditions it's just extremely

rewarding career and one that doesn't get enough recognition to or even exposure to individuals

coming through high school and and um you know trying to pick their career pathway where it can really offer a lot

of opportunity and a lot of uh purpose and direction in a person's life.

Yeah. No, that's you know I many of you know I started in sports medicine and I spent my entire life there. I grew up in

that world and it wasn't until about 10 years ago that I was really exposed to the trades and just the more I learned I

I'm like man this is just some like a path a career path that we don't expose

our kids to and it's something uh that I'm a huge advocate now when people come and talk to me about you know what would

you recommend your kids do or you know young young adults these days and I'm

like I'm a huge advocate for the trades. I just think there's tremendous potential there. Um and that's thanks

for sharing about your your growing up experience third generation. U but even

with being a third generation uh you had a little bit of uh you know this your

start was a little bit rough at at times and and I I remember you telling me a

story about questioning if you wanted to even go down that path early on. Uh can you tell us a little bit more about your

apprenticeship? Yeah, absolutely. So, I I really I graduated early and I had to wait till I

turned 18 years old so I could sign the union books and and try and get into the trade. And then um being exposed to, you

know, all the individuals in the field and getting taught to how to climb a pole, you know, early on, I felt more

maybe a little entitled that I had all these connections. I was third generation that I could just walk in and

I'd get an apprentichip and be this line worker. So, I went

to the interview for the apprenticeship here in the uh Northwest and I'm pretty sure that my stepfather had called in

some favors to have them take it a little extra rough on me in the interview that I went through there. Now

I'm coming in with the mindset that I'm going to get into this industry then I'm going to be great and it's just going to be just the next step in the process

just like it would apply to any school. And it was one of the most brutal beatdowns that I've ever experienced in

this interview process. And it was very um defeating and

it definitely put a bit of a chip on my shoulder where I left the original uh interview and I

was like there's I want nothing to do with this industry with these people. I don't want to be a line worker. I was

already, you know, experienced growing up and the guys coming over and just how rowdy sometimes they could be. And I was

like, I want nothing to do that. I'm going to go back to my original plan. And I made that drive home. It was like three-hour drive home and just kind of

stewed on it the whole time and slept on it that night. And I woke up with this

massive chip on the shoulder. going to deciding that I was going to get in this industry. I was going to prove that I

belonged and that I was going to do whatever it took to uh work my way up

and be that individual that I prove that I do belong, that I am capable and good

enough. I don't need a family name or anything to get me into the industry. So, that was the route I took. And I

spent a year as a groundman just in the trenches doing conduit and

um all pretty much the task that you could imagine that you would have as the ground helper and applied for the

apprenticeship again and came in there and I said you know I'm may not be the

smartest person that will come through today or the mo most well polished but I'll be the hardest worker that comes

through here today and I prove that I do belong here. And 8 days later, I got

accepted into the apprenticeship. And then I was introduced to a whole new world again where now as a young

18-year-old or 19-year-old um teenage man in the world having to navigate

um different personalities and being on the road and um you know, not what I

experienced at home or what I had anticipated early on in the career. I would say some

of the individuals that I worked for weren't the best influence and were very

challenging and it was sometimes questioning if I made the right decision, if I was cut out for this. And

I think that was really good because it taught me a lot of um resiliency and lessons early on. And then later on in

the apprentichip, I worked with some of the most incredible uh line workers there were that um also helped because

at the time losing family and not having the adult male guidance in my life,

you're at the mercy of the crews and they become your family and you want to

model their behavior and and be like them because they're they're cool and I want to be like them. And uh early on I

could have gone down a really bad pathway for some of the crews I was working on.

Later on the crews that I worked for have become some of the most incredible

mentors that I could have ever asked for. And it was definitely a gift that not only the line work aspect of it, but

just as being a a good human being and um you know wanting to

make a positive impact on the next generation, be a teacher and um there

just so many lessons that that I got taught that I'm glad and grateful that

it was that pathway where it was hard early and then I got to experience what

it should be like later on so that I knew who I wanted to model um myself for

my behavior and who I wanted to be like and uh yeah it was definitely an

interesting pathway that I took and I don't think it could have worked out

better right there was the struggle early on and like I said you got to see both sides of the coin and make my own

decisions and decide who I really wanted to replicate but who I wanted to be as a

journey level worker and as an adult and just as an influence to the trade and

you know just life in general. As I hear that story, uh, you know, it

sounds like even though it was a rough start, that was actually probably a huge

gift for you to not have that feeling of entitlement just cuz I've been in this trade, have family in it, like it it

taught you to actually have to to take that ownership and and carve your own path. What would you say to um you know

a young apprentice out there who's just getting into the trades and they they're like, "Oh man, this is this is tough.

Did I make the right decision?" Um and you kind of touched on that, but anything else that you'd like to add uh

just for those people? I would say it's it's tough in the

beginning and don't look at um you know the current situation you're in. Look

look to the future. Believe in yourself. believe in the dream, the purpose that you that brought you to this industry

that you were joined for. And at some point in time, there's going

to be lessons that you're going to learn. And you're going to see different u behaviors and different uh methods and

work practices. All of that is a form of training. I mean, you get trained what

you don't want to do. You get trained to what you want to do. Um, just believe in yourself, stick true to the course that

you're on, and when your opportunity comes, you'll be in a good position to be an incredible leader and and uh model

for the next generation. With Vimosity, utility leaders are cutting injuries by up to 50%. Keeping

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more at vumasi.com.

Ken, thank you so much for sharing that story just about your own personal experience going through the

apprenticeship. And you know, it's easy when you've grown up in the line trade, you're third generation to feel that

entitlement. Um, but I would imagine and it sounds like when I hear your story is that it actually the way that you were

treated um definitely helped you take that personal ownership and it

ultimately the the short-term pain led to better outcomes in terms of your experience growing up in the trades and

making it your own. What would you say from an advice standpoint to someone who

may be in apprentichip right in an apprenticeship right now and they're experiencing like, you know, push back

from from the senior people on their team or they're just feeling like, oh man, did I make the right decision going

into this trade? What what would you say to people in that situation? I would say always double down on

yourself. believe in yourself and the journey, the purpose that you are on that brought you to the industry and the

pains are going to be short term. Down the road, you you'll be the one who's

going to with the lessons that you've learned be able to impact and influence the future. And just believe in yourself

and the challenge that you're facing now is just going to make you a better

person and a better line worker in general. and you're going to learn a lot of lessons through this experience and

just embrace that challenge. Um, you know, both the mental aspect of it, the

physical aspect of it, the emotional side of it too. Um, just really embrace that and cherish that that opportunity

because you're learning a whole lot of lessons right now that will be beneficial to you in the future.

Yeah, thanks for that. And you know, as being a more senior person on the team

as well, uh you and I have talked about this just the the culture has changed a lot in terms of the trades and the way

that kind of that old school mentality of, you know, just rub dirt on it, don't talk about anything, don't share your

emotions. like there's been a pretty big shift I think and you can maybe I mean you're the expert you can speak to this

but um what are some of the opportunities that you would maybe

encourage people who are more senior in their role uh in terms of encouraging the younger generation and being an

advocate for them and helping them with that transition? What what are some lessons that people might be able to

apply in their own life as they start to transition uh into a leadership role?

There's a few parts and one of them I just got to make a comment where you said being a little a senior person and

that one's still hard to uh process because I was started in the trade as 18

years old. I was always the the young one and now 25 years later uh well 26 years later it it's you know

I am the senior person and it goes by so so fast um in

ways as a senior person now like recognizing the impact that you have on

those next generations the lives that are coming in just the influence the impact that you have in recognizing

that your legacy that you're going to leave isn't some power lines that you're building up on the rightway or you know

the next major project or something like that that will mean nothing. It's going to

come down in a storm get hit by a car and eventually it'll be replaced. It's the people that you have the opportunity

to influence and help them to have a successful career and carry on the

traditions of the trade and make improvements and and be able to innovate

and take this trade and the industry into the future, right? Not the same

electrical grid that my grandpa was installing that we're still building right now. the one that's gonna take us

to the future where the world needs and you know all the technologies there.

It's just to be open-minded and help to make that your legacy

to bring the industry forward and to influence all these next generations and help them to be successful.

I heard you give a presentation on leading with purpose and you talked about um a sense of belonging, a sense

of service and a sense of challenge. Can you maybe expand on leading with purpose and you know the the the

purpose may be different for other people but can you share uh your personal purpose?

I will I can give you a little bit of the the story there too and being young in the trade. uh I you know journey

level when I was at 22 years old and foreman really young and you're just

checking the boxes and I was successful I think you know by the

industry world standards like checking all the boxes doing everything that I thought you're supposed to do to be

successful and happy and recognizing that all these boxes that you get to

don't actually make me happy it made made it h made me happy for a moment but it didn't fulfill me and I was

really kind of starting to struggle with that and just through fate and some uh experiences that I had

through individuals in the apprenticeship class that I was helping to you know influence in a positive way

and help them to be successful led me on a bit of a quest or a journey

to kind of explore my purpose in life and I come to realize that through that

chain of events that my purpose wasn't building, you know, power lines. It

wasn't on being able to be the fastest crew or the,

you know, whichever big job that you're out to tackle to conquer that challenge. It was the actual people and being able

to influence them and help them to be successful. And um what I recognized

early on too is from some of the leaders that I had is we all learn differently. We're all unique. We have our own unique

skill sets. And to take the opportunity to not compare every individual to you

and your skill set. Recognize them for their unique gifts and reach them where

they're at and use your knowledge and your skill to encourage them and support

them. to believe in themselves and and achieve their personal success, whatever that

might be. And I got a phone call from one of the apprentices that I'd helped,

you know, get through a tough time. And that phone call was more rewarding than

any promotion, any raise I've ever got. I even at one of my old companies got a

employee of the year award. That phone call hands down was one of the most rewarding experiences that I've ever had

compared to anything I've ever gotten. And that's where I found that my real purpose is is being able to make a

positive impact on other people's lives and and contribute to their success.

Thank you so much for sharing that story. Uh can you talk about belonging and service

and challenge? uh those those three things that I've heard you talk about before and and how critical that is to

having purpose because that's what gets you through the tough times. That's what like you know when it's 70° out and

sunny uh it's it's pretty easy to show up and do the work but when you're working 18 hours and it's a storm and

it's you know it's leading out those are the times that there has to be a purpose that's that's fueling you beyond um you

know beyond just showing up to work. It it it is and and it kind of goes back to

that um chain of events that led to, you know, identifying where I felt my my

personal purpose, my compass, my true north compass kind of guiding me. And it

uh was really, I guess, eye opening or mind-blowing.

I I did a poll with some of my first year apprentices on why they joined the

industry in during the first year. It it is challenging and it's you're away from home, you're on the road, you're not

making a lot of money. You have somebody else really controlling your life, telling you where you're going to go and you're not, you know, you're not treated

real well and it's a struggle. So, you know, why did we choose this industry

and the replies that I got back and this was all anonymous and three things

brought three things were were unanimous across the board and you know one of them kind of varied on how they worded

it. The one thing straight up was a sense of belonging to something bigger

than themselves. And that's something that the trade offers is that

uniqueness to being belonging to that group. Whether it's just the belonging to the union or being considered a a

line worker in the camaraderie that you get from that that feeling of brother

sisterhood um shared purpose that's you know something bigger than myself that

we fight all these dangerous conditions and

brave all the elements together as a team. you know, working, watching out for each other, overcoming impossible

odds to restore power, bring power back to the communities. And so that sense of

belonging to something bigger than ourselves was that one. The second one

was a sense of purpose and helping people. And um for for like a line

worker, you know, we're bringing power out to, you know, whether it's a new building or restoring power after mother

nature brought it down. And again, the challenges, the terrible conditions, cold, wind, um all the dangers from the

electrical system, sleepless nights, starving mixed with the camaraderie of that group

that you're mixing those challenges together. And then the third element or third part to that that they came with

was that challenge whether that was a physical challenge, med or mental

challenge, the emotional aspect of it and even the chip on the shoulder

proving that you are good enough, that you do belong where maybe somebody said, you know, college, you aren't good

enough for college or you're not cut out for this and you'll never amount to anything. and being able to prove that

you do have you are good enough, that you do have a purpose. Um those three

things mixed together really powerful and it's exactly what this industry offers people. Um, you

know, you got that camaraderie. You have the impossible odds that now you're building and overcoming as a team and

you're doing good for the communities by bringing back power when people are

suffering because the power's been out and clearing the dangerous conditions off the road. And uh when I read that

and I saw the results and just kind of went over the data again, I was like mind-blowing cuz it brought me back to

why I really joined the trade too. And having that realization, it was really

energizing and I wanted to, you know, pursue it even more and get back into it. And I think just the way that

society and the world is today, we a lot of us achieve the goals that we set out

early on and we maybe didn't set high enough goals or far enough goals and it

gets to where you're chasing more extrinsic type rewards just the next raise or the next award of some sort and

it never really brings happiness. And when I focused on those pieces of it,

the trade was extremely rewarding again. And that felt that purpose and and then

being able to share that with other individuals and help them maybe gain

focus back onto their purpose, too. What really gets that person out of bed? What made that person join this industry and

overcome the challenges and the dangers and the time away from the family, the sleepless nights, all of that? It's

extremely rewarding when you when you think about that again and it encourages

to get out there and also bring that insight to you know some of your peers

or or the next generation help them keep focus on you know what really brings

them true happiness. One of our other guests on the work ready podcast, Eric Capatulic, um he

talked a lot about mission and the importance of having a mission. You use the term uh you know your true north, uh

purpose. I feel like all these words are interchangeable. Um but it's it's like

you have to have direction. But his his point was that you don't wake up with purpose. You don't wake up with, you

know, a mission. And it's it's something that you have to like wrestle with. You've got to like narrow down what are

the what are the three things that give you purpose or give you direction. Um

that is your true north that's your mission that that drives you. What are some

maybe uh advice or guidance that you give to

people who've never you know sat down and gone through an exercise of identifying what their purpose is, what

their mission is and um you know how could how could they go about exploring

that? I don't know that there's a direct link to finding purpose. It's kind of a

journey that you need to take on your own. And everybody's I believe that

everybody's purpose. We have we have shared purpose. There's also the purpose

that has probably been shaped at some point in time through your childhood that um through whatever events that

you've been through that that uh you know control the behavior even

subconsciously that you do and what makes you actually truly happy and maybe

that's providing for your family or maybe that's helping other individuals.

um you know, a hundred different things that it it could be. And it's just taking the opportunity to really sit

down and maybe reflect back on to when were you the most happiest? When did you

feel the most alive at work? Like what were you doing? Were you mentoring somebody? Was it one of these impossible

puzzles or challenges that you had to solve to overcome? Was it that kind of piece of it? And maybe just reflect back

on those times when you felt truly happy like alive at work, not just satisfied

or status quo, like you felt energized

from from work and kind of investigate there like follow that pathway and what

you what was it that you were doing exactly that made you feel that way. And it might be eye opening to really find

the direction that it is. And once you do have that purpose and you realize that

and being able to lead with that purpose, it it'll change your life.

I have a friend and I remember he talked about finding his purpose. uh you use

energize, but he used the the example of like resonance and you know when

vibration is happening and then you pair vibrations so that it's in sync and all

of a sudden it goes from everything feeling chaotic to now it's in sync and it just it amplifies everything. And I

think that's such a great way to to think about it is when when you find your purpose, your direction, whether

that's, you know, in your career, whether it's through a faith journey, whatever it is, then when you're doing

those things, it's like that wavelength is in sync and it just

amplifies everything. And so I don't know that that's that's an image that

for me I was just like oh man that makes so much sense because there there as I've gone through that process that's

definitely how I've felt. I I I do love that. And I I'll make a comment there,

too, because it's still life and life is very challenging and you're always going to get, you know, thrown a Y in the road

or some kind of obstacle to overcome and you're probably going to hit some turbulence along the way. As long as

you're sticking to that pathway, it will even out again and come back to being

steady. So, just there's a lot of times that I've questioned still too like I

believe something. so much and then you're not getting the traction or the response that you you were hoping to

really have or make an impact or maybe you just feel that maybe I'm not

thinking right. Just still believe in yourself and follow that and eventually that

turbulence evens out and you're back to flying nice and steady again. I love that. So, Ken, I've never worked

a day in the trades uh as a full-time, you know, lineman or apprentice. I I

worked for the county uh growing up on my college breaks on the public service crews and uh public utilities. So, I did

a little bit of the work, but um one of the things that I've heard from people

as I've been in the trades now for 10 years, just uh you know, as a consultant and um interacting with a lot of people

is that for people who are motivated to continue to grow and advance their career, often times they go from like

frontline worker and then they move into a supervisor role and then, you know, your your career path tends to become

less of the hands-on work and for leading people and leadership and um

making those decisions, but there's not a lot of training that happens to to

prepare you to lead people and to um gain that leadership. And I

know you and I have spoken about you do a lot of leaders leadership consulting, but what are some of the things that you

found helpful? You gave some examples of some people that went ahead of you, who

mentored you, who were influential to your development. What were some of the attributes that you saw in those people

that, you know, subconsciously you probably just started to, you know, to

model some of those same behaviors to to develop your own leadership? Um, and what what could people look for in um,

you know, their co-workers if they're like, "Man, I really look up to this person and and I want to learn from this person." What are some of those

attributes? So there there's a there's a few that we

would touch here and I think one that we just overlook is we

put too much thought or we we value just the idea of a

leadership position more than it is. It's not the leadership position is just

a like you're a job. It's just management. leadership is a responsibility

and not the title. And I think the biggest

um I guess asset or gift that you can have or or tool is to be to be human and

to be open, vulnerable as a leader. You're going to make mistakes.

Admit that you've made a mistake or that you don't have the answer or that you need help with something. allow your

team to contribute to, you know, feel like they're part of the solution. Don't

try and have all the answers because as a leader, you will not succeed if you act like you have all the answers. You

need to have a team around you. Allow them to participate and be vulnerable

like model that type of behavior to them and and be human and and real like we

have emotions, we have struggles and challenges to overcome.

pretending that you're in this position that everybody does what you say, your

words, the final word won't get you very far and really will lead to accidents

and lower productivity and bad culture. It's it's just that human element that

you need to really have and and and embrace and and and encourage and

empower your team to contribute and be part of that solution.

And you you hit on some really important things there because again, you please

speak from your experience, but it seems like a lot of conflict on team comes from leaders who don't want to admit

they're wrong. And they also lead from a command and control perspective rather

than um what you said having the the rest of the team participate in the

decisions and provide feedback and uh come up with those solutions so that they can take ownership. And the other

key component of leadership is also just being present too so that they can see that you're willing to um you know maybe

do the work or that you're you see what they do and how hard they're working.

Can you maybe expand on that? Like the the difference between those two

leadership styles and the impact that that can have on culture. Yeah. Uh, and you hit on a couple pieces

there, too. When you when you're on the cruise, that command and control, all all it does is really limits the growth

of your if you're um individuals that are working, your team that's working with you, your crew that's working with you, it's limiting their potential. It's

limiting innovation. It's actually engineering probably a

disaster or a safety incident to happen when you're just controlling everything and you're people are just going to do

exactly what you say and not use the skill or the knowledge they have when they see a potential hazard upcoming or

a roadblock. They're just following your orders. Just mindless mindless compliance to, you know, do

what you say, which we're going to be wrong because we make mistakes all the time. We can't know everything. there's

too much, it's too vast, and there's all other um factors that are coming in on,

you know, weather and real-time environmental conditions and just anything else that you can imagine

that's going to have an impact there. And your people, your crew, your team needs to be able to be innovative and um

to be able to adapt to the conditions. And if they're just following orders, they're going to fall right into a

disaster or an accident. And that, you know, that style might have worked at

one point in time when there was, you know, very little in the way, very

little traffic hazards and certain things. It still probably led to a lot more accidents than we ever realized.

the way that the world is today with being so dynamic, you really have to be

human. Like take that human element to it. Empower your team to

make decisions. Like um another big piece of it is not just the how, the the

why aspect of it. Like you have to explain why we do this procedure. you

know, why we're um potentially setting a poll here or whatever the task might be.

What's the purpose behind it? So that we actually have an understanding and we can all work towards the same goal or

you know this the same solution where when we just give direction

sometimes it's just mindless to that destination and there is no reward when

we meet there as a team and everybody just wants to check the box and go home and um I just think it's not a great

model to try and utilize does. So, when I hear that, I think of a

scenario where a crew is doing a prejob brief and, you know, maybe someone sees

something that potentially could be a hazard, but they don't feel comfortable speaking up or

um maybe somebody's a little bit hung over. I mean, does that ever happen, Ken? Have you ever experienced that on a

crew? Oh, yeah. and they know deep down I probably

shouldn't be working right now or I shouldn't be doing this task or someone

on the team recognizes you know another teammate is maybe not quite fit for duty

on on that day. Um how as a leader or as a teammate do you create an environment

where people can speak up or you know you as an individual can say you know

what for the for the safety of the team we need to we need to have a tough conversation here

and that that's a really important role for for a leadership for anybody in a

leadership position and it doesn't even have to be um you don't have to have an official leadership title. I mean, you

could still be the journeyman on the on the crew and not the actual foreman and

still have that responsibility or I guess that accountability to your team

for everybody's safety and to really have that impact and and to watch out

for each other's safety. It's again it's being vulnerable and it's as the leader you have to start like it has to start

with you. You have to model the behavior that you want to see from your people

because you won't you can't just ask somebody to be this way or say I want to

hold you accountable to this if you're not accountable to it yourself. Like you have to model that before you can ever

ask your people to to follow that direction or to lead this way or to act

a certain way. You you have to be the one that starts it off. So you have to model vulnerability. You have to admit,

you know, that you don't have an answer or you have to be the one that admits that you made a mistake that to

demonstrate that it's okay to have a mistake and you'd rather have that

mistake brought up so we can solve it as a team instead of waiting until it comes time to energize something and then it

burns it down to the ground and now you've got a bigger issue. So being able to just start that off where there's

safety and trust that's built up on the crew to share the condition that they're in and really to check in with the

people on your team. Make sure where you're at physically, mentally, and

you know, maybe they're fatigued. How is it at home? Maybe they had a a small child that's kept them up all night.

Where are they at? because maybe they're having a a a fight with their spouse. And it's really evaluating uh where your

people are at mentally, physically from, you know, maybe they were, like I said,

up all night, so physically they might be fatigued and might not be all there. And maybe it's time where they take a

different role and somebody else takes, you know, steps up and and uh I think on

extreme ownership, what is it called? Uh duck and cover or something. Yeah, of that nature. And same kind of concept

where cover and move. Cover and move. Yeah. Where you're you're really sometimes it's a trade-off

and it's you build up that camaraderie, that team mentality where you're everybody's working towards the same

goal. And be really clear on your expectations as a leader, too. What you

expect from your crew, what you expect for everybody when they show up. and

stay consistent. When if you're not consistent, it won't matter at all. So, it's always it consistency and really

clear expectations on the behavior, on how we're going to act as as a a crew,

how we're going to interact with the public, how we're going to interact with other people, the example we're going to set. Just be very clear on those

expectations and then very consistent. And you have to model that first before you can hold somebody to that standard

as well. I'm going to run something past you. Uh

so a lot of the conversation right now on safety focuses on sticky stuff that can

kill you. So it's the high energy hazards. Um we talk a lot about uh the energy wheel and identifying high energy

hazards. And I think that all these frameworks are so so important because

what it does is it it provides you know just the awareness and a framework for

people to identify the hazards that exist. But one thing that I I feel like

is missing and part of this sticky and the stuff that can kill you is not having honest conversations. And it's

also the human element. And uh I just feel like we've got to put the human at

the center of the energy wheel because everything that you just talked about like that person might have just, you

know, had a a rough night. Um wasn't able to sleep. Um maybe they yeah did

have an argument. Um maybe financially they're experiencing something. And so there are all these things that are

impacting someone's presence of mind and their ability uh to identify hazards or

to you know even speak up um that they're maybe not fit for the job that

day. What role do you think the human does play in the bigger picture from a

safety perspective and how do we bring as an industry bring more awareness to

to that piece? Cuz to me, it's like you can do all those other things, but if you don't also focus on that human and

their readiness to perform work, we're only going to get so far from an injury pro prevention standpoint.

And it's it's really ironic that you bring this up. I just had a conversation with somebody earlier on the capacity

wheel and that's what I said. I go, where's the human element at here?

Really, I think what 80% of workplace accidents can be blamed on the human

element to it. And it's not that nobody sets out to make an accident happen or

make a bad decision. Uh it's usually another factor just like all the parts that you hit on. You're dealing with

fatigue which can reduce our reaction time and our attention or dehydration

things that we've talked about in the past. And then the stresses and anxieties that you have from

relationships, from children that might be having some hard times, parents that are struggling with health and

friends that might be struggling or like you said maybe financial stresses that you're on and the risk that you really

need this job and if you don't, you know, make enough money that you know, maybe you're not going to have enough to

pay rent or whatever that might be. that add stress that um take up your

attention, reduce your reaction time and put give you that tunnel vision that lead to the accidents that there's, you

know, all kinds of factors that that factor into are like pain, you know, from an injury that you might have been

experiencing too that leads to that human factor. And and I

love the capacity wheel that that model there. As a crew leader or somebody that's been

in the industry for a long time, you tend to focus on the the big serious hazards like the electrical ones, the

getting in the bite, the pinches and the gravity type things. And some of the more minor ones that you're used to

dealing with or you've dealt with for the past 20 years, you tend to overlook. yet we assume that everybody on the crew

is the same as us and recognize those and somebody's newer and they haven't experienced those and it's still a

hazard that can lead to a bigger incident or an injury and it it all has

impact and um I like that capacity model because then it generates if used

generates the conversation and if you use it correctly it it gets the

involvement of everybody on the crew and gets a voice from everybody and starts to generate the thought of what are the

hazards so we can point them out and um it's pretty amazing when you get other

people's perspective. It's the pieces that that you overlook and you think that you're an industry expert and

you've been in the industry for so long and somebody that's brand new, maybe it's their first week and they pointed out three things that you were oblivious

to. So, um I really like that and I agree with you that 80% of that wheel

should be the human element as well. Yeah. And I just thank you for that. I I

do want to also acknowledge that I think that these frameworks are incredible. It's it's moved the industry so far

forward and it allows us to put the direct controls in place so that people can fail safely. But if you can combine

the human element with this other these other frameworks, it just feels like that's where the magic happens and

that's where we can really move things forward. Um but yeah, there there's so many human factors that should be

considered. So to me that feels like an exciting frontier uh that we can all work towards.

Yeah. And it was like I said kind of ironic that we just brought this up.

One of the comments that got made to me of why that human element wasn't there. Maybe it was by design because we know

it's such a wide, you know, big big hazard and

there's potentially too much in there that if we acknowledged it that we would

have to make a lot of adjustments out there cuz the work model that we have with the storm and the fatigue and

making sure and we tell people to drink water, but we don't give them the reason why and how it impacts them and and

driving in the vehicles. for a long time and being in the sun and you know being

away from home for a long time and just not recognizing the impact that it has on the families and to your

um mental health or fitness with the relationships that you have at home and

the challenges that it introduces and all of those

factors that cloud your judgment and get like give you that tunnel vision.

Yeah, it's messy, but until you address it, it's just going to continue to, you

know, sit under the cover. So, yeah. No, I I appreciate you having this conversation cuz it's one that I don't

think a lot of people want to talk about or they want to address, but I think that these are the things that as this

becomes more part of the conversation, we're going to figure out different ways that we can support that human comp uh

component in a much more holistic manner. And I I think everybody wins when we do that.

Agreed. And it really it starts with the conversation. So Ken, um you now have transitioned

into line worker solutions, which is an awesome organization, and uh you're

doing a lot of training with frontline workers and leaders. Uh what are the things right now that you're excited

about uh and that you're teaching uh people on the front lines? The things I'm most excited about is the

openness from a lot of like the new generation, even some of the older generation when we look at the way

things are and realize that it isn't maybe the best route and maybe there is

a better way and the openness to bringing the human element back and

doing away with the old command and control and going towards that um like

the capacity model where in in just the psychological safety and recognizing that we are human, we probably shouldn't

be designing or or engineering taking the human element out of it, right? So, we make

procedures and checklist to engineer the human out of it the equation. Yeah,

that's our biggest gift, too, is being able to be flexible and and be innovative and and transition skills

that we've learned somewhere else to a new situation when the procedures changed or the conditions changed. And

if we're just following that checklist, we're not necessarily going to be in the right position. And um being able to

utilize that kind of concept and more the psychological safety where we

do encourage um you know vulnerability and and and

you know not having all the answers and encouraging individuals to have a voice, share what they know, ask the questions

and build trust where near misses get get um shared. so that

we can learn from them. And the also the the um change from

blaming the individual for the problem and maybe looking at the like the

systems that we have in place that allowed that to happen. And that change in mindset which 20 years

ago, 10 years ago, people would have just laughed and said, "Put your feelings aside. Get back to work. Rub

some dirt on it." Now there's a lot of openness and um intrigue I guess

interest into where this might lead us and I'm excited and hopeful that as an

industry and as a trade we can venture down that pathway and continue to

improve safety because if you're looking at the statistics from this year with

all the tools and technology like safety incidents should keep going down and

they're not they're staying at a plateau and actually increasing this year and it's I think it's all because of that

mindset and it's we start to embrace the mindset that you know we are going to

make mistakes that we're going to learn from those mistakes blaming somebody isn't giving them psychological safety

it's causing people to hide those mistakes and we need to encourage people

to you know share their near misses share share the lessons that they learned and not just have like a safety

meeting or something and say, "Okay, this is your floor to talk." also acknowledging that your voice is valued

and we want to hear what you have so that we can learn from each other and have that kind of peer-to-peer support

and we're I'm getting that feedback and there's a lot of um people that are

expressing interest in it and there's excitement when we talk about this kind of different philosophy

that's really encouraging to me and we're seeing even leadership like

executive level leadership that's buying into is and wanting to go that direction too. And I'm really hopeful that as an

industry we trend that way and we start to see more fulfillment from work, less

accidents, more enjoyable lives outside of work and uh

and just better industry overall. Ken, I'd love to hear from you. You you

shared a lot about the demands that are placed on frontline workers. I mean, working long hours, storms, being away

from family, uh, all those different components, and yet, you know, you do a

great job at taking care of your your body, your health. You re, you know, talked about stress reduction and sleep.

We we've covered all these different things. What is what has been your formula that you've found has has helped

you in those areas? because I'm sure it's it's not always been on track and there have been times where it's like

you're working a storm and it's like a week long of of you know limited sleep

but what are some tips that you can give to our listeners in terms of how to invest in yourself so that you can show

up your best because you know fatigue impacts stress it impacts all these

other things um that help us restore I think it's recognizing and we've had

this conversation in the past that your body is your biggest tool. You buy a

nice truck and you take care of your truck and you wash it and you make sure that you're getting it serviced and you

you know you you baby it and yet you abuse your body and that's that is what

brings you food and supports your family and keeps you working and helps you

progress and you need you have that one tool that you need for the rest of your

life. all of those hours that you're working to save for retirement that you

won't get to enjoy if you continue to abuse the tool that you're using. I think it's just recognizing that

you're not invincible, that your body does need proper care, just like you would be caring for your house, you

know, putting a new roof on it and making sure that all those that you've winterized your pipes, all all of that

kind of aspects to your body, too. that you are making sure that you're getting the proper hydration, proper nutrition,

and um you know, the sleep and and how the fatigue impacts your health and the

foods that you eat impact your health and stretching and moving to keep your uh muscles and joints, everything loose

to prevent the injuries. And pretty much everybody that I know has had some kind of uh injury or event that's caused them

pain that they have to deal with. And most of the time you kind of just shrug it off and say it's part of the job when

it really isn't part of the job. I mean there's things that will happen, injuries and accidents will cause those

the little day-to-day dings. If we took proper care of ourselves, we wouldn't have those and we wouldn't be taking all

the Tylenols and Advils and maybe adult beverages when you get home or whatever

it is that you're trying to cope with. that's, you know, can be the gateway to even more um

types of um recreational vices or whatever it might be that can lead to a

dangerous pathway. And um it all has an impact on you. It's just realizing to

take care of yourself and prioritize that. And even the relationships that you have with your family, with the

people on your crew, um at home, your friends lead to your health, too. and

putting some priority into those relationships, you're you get a lot of

health benefits and happiness from that where just chasing the next overtime or

the next carrot or the next toy that's going to make you happy for a day or a

week and won't keep you happy when you're retired and won't, you know, you won't be able to enjoy it then. And

it's, I guess, prioritizing what really matters and it starts with yourself.

goes back to purpose too, doesn't it? Does I mean that that drives every decision. Um,

you know, and I really appreciate you sharing that. I have a fundamental belief that your work should build you

up rather than break you down. And you know, it is possible that someone could,

you know, with the right maintenance, with the self-care, um, you know, making those decisions to invest in their their

movement, health, their, you know, nutrition, hydration, all those things. Um, your work could potentially, you

know, build you up rather than break you down. And sure, we are going to experience accidents or muscle strains

or things like that that that set us back. But um wondering if you have any

additional thoughts on on that topic and uh how to change that mindset because

you've heard me tell this story before. I mean my grandfather lived with a mindset of like I'm just getting old. I

you know my work's broken me down. This is what I should expect. And I think there's a little bit of that old school

mentality that, you know, you get to the end of your career and it's like you replace both knees and your shoulder and

you try to, you know, take care of all that stuff rather than spending your career investing in in the maintenance.

And I'd love to hear your thoughts around that. Yeah. And I I've seen that and you know,

early on too. Um, being being young, you think you're invincible and eventually

it catches up and you start to feel those pains. And I've had to overcome

some of those pains myself and deal with that. And you can make an excuse to

accept it and just deal with the pain and cope, medicate however you decide

to. Or you can take accountability and ownership of how your body feels and

responds and put in, you know, the necessary work to stretch and make sure

that you're fueling it properly, that you're hydrating it properly and you're exercising or just going for a walk in

the improvements that you get that you just accepted as a badge of honor or the

way it was. It it'll be it'll be mind opening or mind-blowing to you how good

you can feel just putting in the effort to want to you know educate yourself and

seek additional type of um treatments or

you know tools to improve your improve your health. educate yourself on the foods that you're eating and um you know

keep track of what you're putting into your body through hydration or through

you know your adult recreation type things and don't I guess don't jeopardize the your

your long-term enjoyment and happiness for just a short period of reward and

and really look at the long picture and the memories and and the enjoyment

you'll get from a long healthy life of being able to go on your adventures, go on your fishing trips, go on your travel

and see the world, spend it with your family, spend it with your kids playing ball and all that or sit on the couch

and eat some Doritos and have a beer and, you know, watch a movie which will

catch up to you and it'll shorten your happiness and and the whole work. So, it's really just being aware of that,

educating yourself and making that effort. It's and don't even do it

necessarily for yourself. Do it for the people that count on you, for the people that love you, and for the people that

you are there to um support your your kids and the people that need you in in

your life. Like, you do it for them, not just yourself, for that short-term enjoyment, whatever it might be.

you. People need you and they need you to be healthy and to be happy and to be active and engaged and you can't do that

unless you're taking care of yourself. Well said, Ken. So, going back to Line

Worker Solutions, what are some of the uh the services that you offer and how

can people get in touch with you? You can get in touch with me linework lineworkers.com.

Uh I'm also on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. You could find me on there as well. And the services that we offer, um

what I like, how I like to describe myself is being that voice that can help

bridge the gap between the front office and the frontline workers. That us versus them mentality that's that's

there and being a voice that can help bring those two parts together. and um

you know restore the culture so that we're a team and not just two opposing

forces that are trying to accomplish uh maybe a same goal or something. and recognizing that realistically we

all have the same goal in mind when we work for an organization and being

aligned and and helping just helping to bridge those gaps and change that thought process and then also bring

awareness to different safety aspects that might be maybe it's you know the electrical hazards, the arc flash type

hazards um and you know the maybe the the fatigue

the the physical ical storm type situations that a person might be

running into. And really, it's the focus is just on that culture aspect though

and and um providing your frontline workers with the skills they need to to

transition into those leadership positions and be able to make uh positive influence on their culture and

train that next generation so that we're all heading towards that same purpose or

that same vision. and uh together as a team and not like I said those two opposing forces.

Ken, any final thoughts you'd like to leave the audience with? Just how much I appreciate Vamasi and

and the work Kevin that you do and and even the other individuals that you've

brought on as guest. It's honestly it's just encouraging to see that there's

individuals that are advocates for the industry and if anybody's listening that

has searching, you know, or wants to contribute to to go all in and to

contribute and find purpose in whatever it might be that takes you that way and advocate and be the leader that be the

leader that you needed really. and uh help us to be the change that we need to

transition the industry and the world to a better place.

Man, Ken, thank you so much for that. And I just want to thank you, too. Uh,

you know, me being kind of an outsider coming into this industry and really wanting to learn and and serve. Like,

you've been one of my go-tos. like you always respond to my text messages when I have a question or if I'm like, man,

are are people even going to resonate with this this concept or this idea? Am I wacky thinking this? Uh you've just

been such a great advocate for um helping me better understand uh the

trades and um so just eternally grateful for that. Appreciate anytime we can

collaborate on conversations like this. I know that everyone gets better when leaders get better and you're doing such

good work on helping um tomorrow's leaders improve and um have more

dialogue, be able to, you know, to speak up when when they when they see

opportunities and to yeah, just lead that next generation. So, Ken, thank you

so much. Uh thank you to the audience for for joining the Work Ready podcast.

We're just grateful to serve you and we're grateful to continue to learn, to wrestle with better ways of doing things

and we're so happy that you're here. Uh Ken, thanks so much. And uh everybody uh

continue to tune in. We've got new conversations coming up each week. And until next time, let's get to work.

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