Strengthening Mental Health & Safety in the Trades

Justin Azbill | Peak Sleep

Dr. Kevin Rindal | Vimocity

Hello, and welcome to the Vomocity Live event series. I'm your host, doctor Kevin Rindal. And today, we're gonna be talking about strengthening mental health and safety in the trades. And we're we're really fortunate to have an expert in this space who spent over thirty years in the construction industry.

This is, again, an ongoing series where we're tackling some of the most top of mind topics for safety leaders.

I'm your host, Doctor. Kevin Rindall. As I mentioned, I have a background in sports medicine. I spent fifteen years working with Olympic athletes and patients in my clinic, but really saw this need for, especially in the trades, for us to support what we call the workforce readiness of frontline workers. And when I think about workforce readiness, I think about the physical side. So, you know, your muscles and joints, the hydration, the nutrition, the sleep, all those aspects that support recovery. And then the mental aspect is a huge component.

We're gonna hear from Justin about even the mindset aspect of somebody's overall health and then how this also relates to the work that they do. And so really, really excited to introduce Justin Asbull. Justin Asbull has been, like I said, in the construction industry for over thirty years. He spent his early days working as an iron worker and then has continued to progress into a major safety leader. And he goes all around the country talking to safety leaders about how to better support the frontline workers. And so really excited to have this conversation about mental health mindset and human side of safety. So, Justin, I'd like to introduce you to the conversation.

Anything else that you'd like to share with, just your background in this space?

No. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be, be here with you guys today and excited to be partnering with Vimosity on, this this topic. It's the number one, item in the industry that's, taking lives, and it's kind of what the, we call the the unforeseen risk that people are now starting to talk about more and, we're it's which is good because, the the statistics behind it is is is, it's crisis. But anyways, yeah, a little bit about me, year veteran in the construction industry.

To be honest, man, I wasn't going to be in the construction industry. It chose me, just like ninety percent of the industry. It was my, my backup plan. Right. But, the money is much better. So, you know, thirty years ago, it suckered me in and I never left. So here I am today.

That's great. Well, as you alluded to, over the especially, like, the last eight to ten years, there's been a really strong focus on preventing serious injuries and fatalities in the construction industry, which is awesome because all other injuries are decreasing, but then serious injuries and fatalities continue to be an issue, it's not necessarily continuing to go down. And so that focus has really started to change the way that we think about the overall health and the big stuff that can kill people. But one of the things that has really become apparent, especially over the last five years, is suicides and drug overdoses. So just to put things into perspective, these are some stats from twenty twenty three from CDC and Bureau of Labor and Statistics.

And so fatalities in construction, the rate is about nine point six per hundred thousand.

When you look at suicides, though, it's forty five per hundred thousand. So almost four and a half times. Yeah. A higher number of suicides.

Fortunately, one positive thing about that is in twenty twenty, it was fifty six. So it's gone down from fifty six to forty five. So we are seeing some of the efforts around this topic to be impactful. But again, one more startling statistic.

So drug overdoses in construction are almost fourteen times higher than serious injuries and fatality rates thirteen or one hundred and thirty one per one hundred thousand. So this is something where I heard those statistics, it just about knocked me off my feet because you just realize how many lives are being lost to that human aspect of of the safety. And so you have some personal experience in this space, and you have taken that personal experience and really become a leading voice in the industry on sharing ideas and ways that we can reduce these numbers further. And so you mind sharing just maybe kicking us off with a little bit more about your personal experience in this realm and the conversations that you're having around the country on this topic.

Yeah. So appreciate that. You know, the the statistics are are alarming.

You know, when I my last job before I went out on my own was with Milwaukee tools. I was fortunate because I got to go to a lot of different conferences to learn what was going on in the industry and make sure that we were that that brand was focused. Right? And I went to a conference one year because I was kind of seeking to understand I was in the early stages of a recovery process because I I had a a brief time in my career. It was six months actually that I documented pretty heavy core, and I wanted to understand, like, is this just happening to me? Was this just me? It's like a one off deal.

Being in safety for at that time almost twenty five years, I was dead focused on that injury illnesses statistic, which was averaged around a thousand a year.

And then when they started comparing it to the loss of life to death by suicide, which was at the time, it was seven thousand people in our construction industry.

I was completely shell shocked. And then when they said the deaths by substance use disorder was at that time a little over seventeen thousand people a year, I was like, wow, like my mission needs to be refocused.

That substance use disorder, There was a study done in Massachusetts, by the, Department of Labor in Massachusetts that deemed that the ergonomic injuries, muscle skeletal disorders were the leading cause of the substance use disorder crisis because pain management, first thing they do is give, you know, Pain pills, right? So, man, that really hit me hard. But it also like I saw that other people had suffered were suffering, and it really opened my eyes that it wasn't just me. See, because in twenty twenty, I was the director of safety, but I got called up to another role.

So like not only did I have to maintain my director of safety role, but I also got asked to do some operational stuff where I I became overcapacity really fast. My my working hours went from ten hours to fifteen hours to nineteen hour days. Well, I I've been used to being around some negative talk in the construction industry being a safety. Right?

But my whole day was consumed with this. So quickly I started suffering from sleep deprivation because no one likes being disrespected. Right? And was being disrespected and talked down to and all that stuff, like, a lot during the day.

And I couldn't handle it appropriately with the mindset because I don't like being treated that way just like my background. Right? So any route, but at the same time, I was raised, like, in a family where the motto was we don't raise weak men. You know what I mean?

So, like, if I went to go complain about it, I felt like I would be put on the bench. Even I had all these accolades and everything.

Right. So I kept pushing forward. That's kinda how I was wired.

Quickly, man, like, within a a month and a half, suffering from sleep deprivation. I started suffering from depression because of my environment I was consumed with and then my working hours. I mean, I was working nineteen hours a day. So that kept going to where six months And, I mean, it was where I start actually at about a month and a half in and my daughter was eight at the time and my wife was really busy with work too. And I almost like abandoned my family for work because like it consumed my whole life where it was nineteen hours a day, and then I had to sleep, and then I wake up and work. I mean, it was just crazy.

Any route, I I got to such a bad place, and yet I could have asked for help.

And everybody that saw me every day, they seen this guy that was handling business and everything, but I was like so dark inside and suffering from sleep deprivation and serious depression because my life was consumed with Just negativity. I call it mental chaos, right?

I almost took my life. I I was gonna I actually packed a firearm or or a lethal means of ending my life to take go to work and I was going take my life at work that day in my in my truck. So if it wasn't for my daughter, she she her first words were papa.

So that, you know, I I was gonna say goodbye that morning, say, hey. Goodbye. I love you. And she came running out of her room, and she's like, papa, papa, papa, I love you.

Know, don't go don't go. I want you to spend today with me. It's like kids know you're you're in bad shape.

At the time, man, like, it was, like, just what I needed. So she grabbed my arm and that that her saying something, you know, changed the whole outcome. Right? But later on that day, I had a calls a call we had a Zoom call called Safety Social and was talking to a bunch of other leaders.

You know, that's what we did. We connected. I was the guy in there giving all the advice I should have been giving myself. Right?

Because that's what we do. It's called masking. You act like everything's fine, but you're really bad inside.

At afterwards, like, after that call, because one of the guys was, like, really in bad shape on there because he just lost his best friend, to COVID. It kinda was my clarity moment.

And I actually called my best friend who was running the call, Josh Rizzo, and asked him for help.

And everything took off from there, man. Like, I felt like So much better.

And I started a new practice, a process of recovery, a lot of veterans practice, it's called shadow work. And, it's what I've been doing for five years, to to maintain who I am.

Inner peace is amazing. But also, when I was at this conference, I realized that my process, which was only six months, there was a lot of people going through it. And it really kind of set everything in motion to better understand the industry. That's when I started my education process to get my PhD, which is an organizational leadership focused on what's happening in our industry and the why.

Right? So, it was it was a it's a why I'm here and why I'm doing this. I mean, I left that role because our industry is in survival mode, man. It it really is.

And and there's a lot to it, and that's what my dissertation paper was really focused on is the why. And a lot of it has to do with economics our industry and we're plugging people in positions they're not really ready for, but in leadership roles. But the other side is like, we're not, we're not building people upfront. We're we're teaching them how to build things, but we're not teaching people how to maintain lifestyle because there's actually, it's called the joiner's theory.

There's, thirteen risks of, I call them mindset risks, but there's thirteen risks of suicide in the industry.

And when you get all of them over capsulating at one time, that's that's when typically most people take their lives to suicide. So understanding that, I think I think first, first and foremost, understanding that and how, how you're wired is like one of the leading, you know, mindset issues of, of solving the problem. But yeah, anyways, that's how I got into, you can see, I can ramble on about this because this is, I'm very passionate about it.

Man, Justin, so grateful that you were willing to share that personal experience. That's a really powerful story.

So many of the safety leaders that we talk with, they're working those crazy hours. And you talk about the sleep deprivation.

Pain oftentimes is involved with that whole equation.

Sometimes there's isolation relationally when you're working like that.

I I remember when we were preparing for this conversation, you mentioned kind of like when you're on an airplane, you can't help others until you help yourself and you get that oxygen to yourself. And we hear those instructions. And then you're in role as a safety leader that's supposed to be helping others. But can you talk maybe a little bit about the importance of taking care of yourself first as a safety leader?

And there may even be people watching this who can really relate to the situation that you just described. And what would be their first step of getting help for themselves?

Yeah, so first and foremost, think it's really important for safety professionals to understand that you are a compliance minded individual that's interweaved in an operational setting Over over time, that will wear on you. It's it's what it's a type of isolation. It'll it'll impact you emotionally because People's comments and behaviors that you're surrounded with is not meant to to to impact you on purpose, but over time it will. Right. So, I think first and foremost, it's real important to understand how you're how you lead or how you're wired in learning how contextual intelligence impacts your emotional intelligence.

So are you open minded, growth minded, or closed minded is kind of what you got to look at. And then how how do you react to conflict? So so the first first and foremost is understanding how you're wired.

Next next process would be a communication process that you're comfortable with because communication or lack of is one of the most vital issues with safety professionals.

You deal with conflict and negativity a lot of times because you are the nine nine one one for everybody. Right? So You go deal with that, and then you're like, okay. We don't need you now.

So it's an emotional roller coaster sometimes. So understanding how to communicate effectively and professionally, but also purposely. And then, then I always talk about maintaining your inner peace. So how do you how do you get that?

So there is no book on that. When I say that there is no like, hey, you got to do this because everyone's wired differently. I always tell everybody, hey, this is what I do Every day I start my day, I journal. I do a power walk or I work out and make sure I have seven hours of sleep.

And then I also have what I call my warrior club. It's two allies, two people that no matter what, if I'm struggling or if I want to share something amazing going on in my life, if I text one of them, hey, can I chat?

We we all have an agreement. We'll give each other eight minutes no matter what because it only takes eight minutes to make someone feel better.

But they're always going to be there for me. So I always know someone's got my back and then most important, I set boundaries.

You know, the phone's like your biggest nightmare as a safety professional. And I know it's not easy for everyone because not everyone can just turn it off, but like having an hour or two hours during the day where you can shut it off and like just learn or.

Take a nap or watch TV or spend time doing something that helps you feel better inside, but also communicating those with your boss. And then the last thing is most importantly for safety professionals is making sure that they're having weekly or maybe biweekly phone, conversations with the people that they work for directly about what they're doing, their ROI, new programs, any issues they're having, because a lot of times safety professionals isolate themselves because if they feel like they're going to their boss a lot, they feel like there might be complaining about stuff where actually what they're what if they are having an open conversation with them, that open dialogue helps them feel supported.

Now, not all bosses are really supportive, but at the same time, you got to try. So that would be my recommendation.

Yeah. Thank you so much for that.

And, you know, there's definitely, like, an entire course training that people probably should all be taking if they're in a safety role in terms of how to look for signs and symptoms in the people that they're talking with. You talked about masking earlier where we say we're all right, everything's good to go. And sometimes we don't understand what's going on internally in that other person. But as a safety leader, they're out interacting with their team with the crew members, like, are some things that people can look for that might be warning signs that maybe there's distress going on in somebody on their team? And then what are some of the first steps that they can do to just make sure that that person is okay?

It's a great question.

What I've noticed specifically is, you know, in the industry, people start showing up late to work more often.

And I'm I've always been the one, like, to say, hey, seek to understand them. Like, ask questions like, hey, in a non conflictual way, like, hey, I've noticed you've been gone.

I've I've noticed you've started to be more late at work. Is is everything alright? Like, is is there anything I can help you with? You know, like, open the conversation because it's like a lot of people are very reactive in a way like to penalize where I've learned in the past, like sometimes they're struggling or, Hey, my mom's sick or I go by to check on my mother she's in chemo or, you know, something like that. So just understand like that's a, that's one sign.

Use of use of substances, alcohol, being under the influence of narcotics is one, talking about not not being needed or, you don't really need me around anymore, like burdensome conversation.

People talking to, you know, getting things in line in order like life insurance, one that makes sure that their savings are all in order, talk, getting a will in place. That's that's one. And the other is people taking extreme risk.

Elevated heights, Driving, you know, vehicles fast, not caring about, like, if they hurt themselves, that kind of that kind of, behavior. And then also their attitude really is horrible. Like, they're very combative at work. You know, trying to cause conflict with others, not caring about it.

Those are some basics. Like, when you see an altered mood of someone, and that's that's why we talk about, like, it's okay to not be okay, but also at the same time, it's really important to if you do see these kind of behaviors, like, try to have a private conversation with them. And it always says, hey, I've noticed this behavior from you. I really care about you.

This isn't like you.

Are you all right? It's okay. You can talk to me like, and then once if they do ask for help, you know, lot of people talk about nine eighty eight, but unfortunately, sometimes it's not the answer because their call rate, return call rate is not the best right now. It's one and a half hours to three days. That's return calls. So understanding upfront, like, that might not be the best option. So as a safety professional, I've really been pushing people to have a mindset crisis plan, Meaning, is there a clinic locally that you can take someone to that has inpatient because there's not a lot.

You know, there is information out there that I can share with this group later. It's a link you can find, locations close to your job site that have mindset, substance use disorder, all that. But the other side is if you work with the company EAP or MAP program upfront ahead of the time and having that crisis plan, you can have them set this up. So like if you do have an employee, even if they're not in the EAP or whatever, you can actually take them to this location.

I use, first and foremost, want to make sure it's a safe transport.

And then on the other side, it's not always just to call nine eleven because if it's a substance use disorder, you're going to add to their problems if the police show up because they're going to arrest them.

That's not always the best option.

I'm not saying don't call the police. I'm just saying, just think of the outside deal like, hey, you're going to cause more problems for this person possibly. So maybe taking them to a clinic might be the best option. And then The EAP thing is really big.

I've been really talking about proactive a lot lately because the nine eight eight is very reactive. So, like, having a plan upfront that's that impacts their company. I have I I just launched one that's called the Ally Code and it's about creating a culture within your organization like, hey, we want you to have allies. We promote this.

We want you to talk to these individuals at least once a week about man stuff or lady stuff or whatever it might be, but start that open conversation because, studies show after the age of thirty people stop talking to other human beings more because they run out of time and they're replacing their life with their phone. So that's just some ideas and processes that I would recommend, running by.

Yeah. No. Thank you for that answer. And I just keep thinking, you know, if we were to move up a layer organizationally, how do we create a culture that is just, creates that psychological safety, creates an environment where, again, we have a proactive plan in place because it seems like there are proactive plans in almost every area of safety. But when it comes to the mental or the mindset aspect, that's not very well established. And I know you just touched on it, but maybe if you could expand You know, as a leadership team for an organization, how can that become something that that they take on and and really start to put some clear paths and resources in place for the company.

You know, Kevin, I'm glad, I mean, a hundred percent, I'm glad you mentioned it. One of the most, you let's, let's be, let's like be realistic. Like look at the statistics, twenty three thousand individuals lost to death by suicide or substance use disorder versus the thousand, right? Our main focus has been on that thousand for a long time. I think we're beyond the awareness level in our industry now. So I like to call it the next step and that's the ally code.

And it comes to modeling behavior. So first and foremost, like when I go and talk to a lot of these organizations, For my dissertation paper, I surveyed three thousand one hundred and fifty one people.

And one of the questions on there was, have you used or tried your EAP?

Only like three percent said yes, right? And, I I I like shaming people in a positive way. Right? So when I talk to these leadership individuals, I always ask them upfront, Hey, have you tried your EAP? Can you tell me how it works?

Most of them say no.

So, like, how do they know if it works? Right? So, I would challenge everybody upfront.

If you want to really change your culture, create a program that you can model and know it hand in hand first, first and foremost, right? So that's that's why, again, I'm not trying to sell anything, but that's why I mentioned the ally the ally code. Right?

I'm replacing nine eighty eight coins with commitment coins. I want people to have allies. Right? So make that a expectation in your company that you have to be part of this proactive program. That's the mindset.

Only hire top performers, and that's how top performers keep themselves. And that's in their mind as top performers. Tom Brady, all of these different athletes, they all talk about how they have a spiritual fitness coach or whatever. I'm sure you did too.

You know, I mean, it's about maintaining yourself top performance. And then when you deal with yourself mentally in a way that where if you have a challenge, you deal with it upfront instead of letting them all compress, you're more sharp. You don't have that on your mind. You can think clearly.

Right? So that's one aspect of it. But then two, these these leaders and safety professionals, why are we not talking about, hey, I called my EAP the other day and it was great. I was having some financial issues and I called them and they set me up with this advisor and now I'm saving ten thousand dollars a year.

Because none of us are good at money. I don't care what trade professionals and how good unless you got a lot of money in the bank. Most of us blow it as fast as we get it. It just it just the reality of our industry.

So why aren't we talking about reusing these resources to maintain ourselves? I mean, hell, the samurais were talking about this in the tenth century spiritual fitness coaches, man, dealing with their emotional still. So we we made it a negative process.

I mean, I was raised that way. Like, we don't raise weak men in this family.

I was being set up a mindset that it's weak or it's a negative thing to, to manage your emotions. So I think if we, we got these executive leaders in, in even top foreman or whatever, like modeling that behavior, talking up like, Hey man, I talked to my warrior club this week. I feel so much better.

You know, I I got support. I mean, what's not to love about that? I mean, let's let's be real. It's and that's what I call the human side of leadership.

We we are so focused on the systematical systems that built stuff we forget the human aspect of it. I mean, we're human beings. We're not perfect. We are going to have problems and we are going to have issues that come up sickness, whatever it may be.

And we have to deal with it appropriately just like we do with building systems in companies. That's my opinion.

Thanks for sharing that.

Earlier in the year, we had another conversation like this, a live event on this topic. And the guest was a frontline worker named Brady Hansen. And talked about getting tough is getting help.

And sometimes we think that getting help is weakness. And I think it's just so important to realize that it's actually tougher and it's almost harder to be able to admit that you need help and then to actually follow through with doing that. And so I appreciate you saying that.

For those who may be a part of a company that has an EAP, an Employee Assistance Program, and they just don't even know what resources are available, what are some things that, again, safety leaders or organizational leaders can do to look into what assistance is available? I'm glad that you brought up the financial aspect because, I mean, I can almost guarantee you a lot of the people who end up going down the path of, you know, pretty severe crisis, financial, like you said, spiritual, relational stress, all those things go into it. So maybe you can explain some best practices that you've seen with EAP programs. I know you already mentioned it, but even just kind of paint a picture of some of those best practices that you've seen out there, because I think it's a resource that's available that people just oftentimes don't even know their support out there for them.

Yeah. So what I've done in the past is I have what's called a It's an Army term. I was in the Marine. Sorry for my buddies. They don't like that. But any route, I created a committee. I created a committee of trade professionals, leaders that I've worked with in my career path.

And I utilize them to for checks and balances. Does this sound legit? Is this work? Whatever.

Right? So I I would recommend every company create a QRF team, of people that they can trust that will give bio valuable, valid information back and say, Hey, try our try out our EAP program, Check it out. Assess it. Does it meet your needs?

And take their feedback constructively. And then whoever's in charge of that, maybe you might have to switch it out because you know, a lot of, a lot of these organizations promise a lot of things upfront.

But what I found, because I've done a lot of research out there on EAPs, Not all of them are actually qualified medical professionals that answer the phone. They answer a script. So, they don't always answer twenty fourseven, like they say they do. Right. So have these guys check it out.

Right? So that's one thing that you can do, and get, get feedback. The other is, vocalize that you're using it, Make that part of your your normalized conversations. Set the expectation.

Make it a goal like, hey, I got fifty percent of my company that's called and tried it out. Right? Like, utilize that more. And the other so, like, I've worked with a lot of these organizations, really big companies that they actually have leadership retreats.

We've taken them for two or three days disconnected completely. And we've taught them how to connect with each other because we forget that, right? We learn the human aspect of the connection. And then do that with your team.

So I know a lot of companies do team buildings, but they go to bars. That's not team building, that's hanging out. Right? So like I I took my team when I worked for Cannistra.

We we climbed Mount Washington, Five of us. We stayed overnight, started early, went today. We're still connected. We still talk all the time.

Right? So like it's that connections, the human connection thing. So I just recommend companies, first and foremost, control what you can control. Look at look and understand and establish.

So the thirteen mindset risk, I would add that to my orientation process. I would say, hey, guys. Welcome to the construction industry day one. We want you to know these are the thirteen mindset risks of the construction industry, most commonly called the Joyner Seerig. It's the, thirteen risks of suicide in the industry. We want you to know these risks are real. They take don't want any one of you to be one One of these statistics, seventy nine percent are men.

We want to help you. Here's this expectation. Here's our resources.

And we mean it. We care about you. And I'll tell you when you do that, not only are you going to have people that know you care and they're going use your resources and you can build out a program Culturally, that's a magnet for top talent in this construction industry.

Trade professionals and leaders want to work for someone who care for them, provide them the best tools, get them nice swag, and they pay them well.

You got that. You're you're winning, right? There's four hundred thousand open positions out there.

And that tells me it's very competitive. So if you create a culture like this, you're gonna be a magnet for the best talent out there. So Managing your, you know, stabilization of management program, there you go. Right? So that's what I would offer up.

Thank you for that answer, Justin. And, you know, we try to keep these conversations right to about a half hour, and I can't believe we're already there. I could talk I I could talk to yeah. Two more hours. It feels like we've got a lot more to cover, but any final thoughts that you wanna leave people with?

Yeah. You know, the industry, like I just said, is very competitive.

We all want to step up, do the right thing. When we get the call up to a new role, I just want to challenge everybody, set boundaries for yourself personally. The number one boundary is to maintain your mindset. And then two would always be to be one hundred percent honest with your your boss or whoever's asking you to take this new role like, hey.

I can do this. I'm not a hundred percent knowledgeable on it, but I'll do my best.

But I have these other five things. Can we take two of those off? Because I want to be the best. I don't want to be scattered thin. If I could manage these three things, I'll be better for the company than if I'm doing the five because I'll be way over capacity and I want to be my best. So that's what I would recommend.

Learn your EAP. The number one is choose your family first. I, I, I put my, my family second and it was one of the worst parts of the mental chaos in my mind, because I felt like I was abandoning my family and they're they're my number one priority and Family over over your job because, again, they'll replace you really quick after you're gone.

So that would be Thank you for leaving us with those thoughts, Justin.

This is a a fantastic conversation.

And just really appreciate your vulnerability and being able to share real life stuff that you dealt with. And I think that's encouragement for a lot of people who may be watching this. For those of you who would like to get ahold of Justin, his email is right here.

And he's definitely open to having these conversations and expanding on that. My contact information is here as well. I'm always happy to be a resource for you as well. Just wanted to let you know that, again, we do have these conversations on an ongoing basis.

And so if this is something that you'd like to register for these, we don't spam you. We just let you know what's coming up next. We always post these events on our events page, and so they're available for free. Feel free to share those with other people.

But we're just really passionate about Again, workforce readiness and how we can support the entire human, both the leaders and the frontline workers with these concepts. So thank you for tuning in today. Again, Justin, thank you so much for being a part. And we really, really are grateful that you are here in the industry.

So until next time, I'm Doctor. Kevin Rindahl, and we'll See you next time.