The Vagus Nerve at Work

Dr. Nicholas Hool | Hoolest

Dr. Kevin Rindal | Vimocity

In this episode, we look at what's actually happening in the nervous system when you get stuck in fight or flight. My guest today is Dr. Nick Hool. He's a biomedical engineer who has studied a newer non-drug approach called vagus nerve stimulation. You'll learn how the vagus nerve helps to regulate your stress response, what the research has found so far, and how this tool is being used by athletes, first responders, and people in high-pressure jobs to calm their bodies, recover after stressful situations, and be more present at home.

This isn't about replacing therapy or medication when those are needed. It's about understanding another tool that you may not know exists. All right, let's get into it.

I think it's important to, and I don't wanna just gloss over this, how impactful it is that there's an alternative to benzodiazepine. And some of our audience may not necessarily fully understand what benzodiazepine is, the impact that it has on people, the reason why it's prescribed, and then the side effects. Can you share a little bit more about, like, how prevalent that, that drug is?

Yeah, I mean, so I guess I'll just say I'm not, I'm, I'm not an MD, so I'm not gonna be, like, the ultimate authority on benzos, and I do personally think that benzos are, are useful for certain people. I think some people should take them.

But I do think most people do not need to be on them. I think a decade ago, they were far over-prescribed, and people get addicted to them. So today, there's about eighty-three million prescriptions of benzos. I can't remember the name of the source, but it was some government source that put that out, um, last year.

So there's a lot of people taking benzos, and what a benzo does at a very high level is it's a little chemical that binds to what's called a GABA receptor in your brain. And so a GABA receptor, G-A-B-A, GABA is your brain's natural relaxation chemical. And when your GABA receptors open, any free-floating GABA in your brain gets absorbed by the receptor, and that triggers an electrical signal via the vagus nerve down your body, telling it to relax.

So GABA is a very important chemical to help your brain and your body relax. So when you take a benzo, it, it's this little chemical that connects to the GABA receptor, and it opens all of them up. And for the most part, this chemical is kind of-- it gets-- it's like a carpet bomb in your brain of just opening up all the floodgates for GABA.

And then suddenly you get this rush of GABA into your brain, and that's why it's, it's very sedating because you're getting so much GABA absorbed all at once that it, it can make you really sleepy, it can make you sedated, it can make you-- in some cases you could, like, hallucinate. Um, if you're taking-- if you're drinking alcohol and you take a benzo, that can kill you.

There is a black box warning on the label that says, "If you drink and take benzos, you have high risk of death." Like, that's how potent these c- these drugs are. And the real danger to this, well, I, I would say the first danger, phase one danger, is you can't operate machinery if you're on it 'cause it's like you've been drinking, right?

All your GABA receptors in your brain are now open, and everything is slowing down. Your thoughts have slowed down. You can't process things clearly. Um, you're not supposed to drive when you're on them. Um, but the more you take them, the brain cells start getting desensitized to it. So in order for that drug to keep working, you need more of it.

And so eventually people are increasing their dose over time, and they get to a point where they can't live without it And if you're at a certain dose and you just stop taking it, your brain will go into such bad fight or flight because it's thinking, "Where's this chemical I need to stay alive?" That your anxiety rebounds 10 times worse than it was when you started on the drug.

So it is a horrible, horrible drug to be on long term. You know, I, I do think there's some cases where it can help, such as like, you know, maybe if you're going into a surgery or something and you're just having a panic attack, it's like, all right, take a benzo to just sedate yourself, and then don't take it again when you're done.

But to get through everyday life, to just get through work, get through, you know, social stuff, performance stuff, I mean, it's, it's a dangerous pill. And, you know, we've been showing that our product is producing similar calming effects in the brain and the body without any of the side effects. It's non-addictive because when we're stimulating the nerve, it's just sending an electric signal.

There's-- You can't get desensitized to electric signals because the nerves are electric by nature. So if anything, you're actually strengthening those nerves, making them stronger over time, which means, you know, after, you know, maybe several months to a few years of doing this consistently, you may not ever need to use it again because your nervous system is so strong, and now you're resilient, and, you know, you're not...

Like, it's like working out, right? If you work out very aggressively for several years, you know, you'll get to a point where it's like your body is so strong and healthy, like, if you wanted to take it easy for a bit, you probably could. Um, you can't do it forever. You know, you might have to switch to, like, a maintenance protocol But yeah, I mean, that's my perspective on the drugs is like I just...

I know so many people who are addicted to them, have been addicted to them, and cannot get off them 'cause they're... Like, your, your body just goes into even worse panic mode if you try to stop. Well, that's in- incredible, especially when you think 83 million prescriptions each year. I mean, that's, that's a lot of people.

And the fact that you're impaired to the l- point where you can't drive machi- machinery, uh, you can't operate a vehicle, that could have a huge impact on somebody in the trades or somebody who's, is working and compromises their safety. I'm excited to talk about vagus nerve stimulation. That's your area of expertise.

Uh, but before we do that, take us back to the early days and how this whole idea just, you know, came to you. I'm, I'm from Arizona, and I grew up playing competitive golf here. Then being a guy from Arizona, you know, my dream was always to go play golf as a professional like most kids, but, uh, wanted to go play at Arizona State University.

And when I was 16, I, I verbally got a commitment to play at ASU from the head coach there, and I was like, "Oh, this is the greatest thing ever. I'm gonna go play at ASU." And then when I turned 17, that head coach got fired. New coach came in and wiped everybody off the team, including all the recruits. So by this moment in time, I've only got maybe six months left before college is gonna start, and I have nowhere to go, and I just lost my dream spot, and that just triggered so much performance anxiety in me, and instead of locking in, I just melted down.

And for whatever reason, I could not... I just couldn't stay calm on the golf course anymore. Um- And, you know, you tell your coaches, they say things like, "Hey, just breathe. Just relax. Go have fun. Go play the game you love." And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, like, obviously, I'm trying to do that, but it's not working.

Like, my body just betrays me, and my heart goes in my throat, and I can't relax." And, you know, breathwork is almost impossible when you're short of breath. Went to a sports psychiatrist, and first thing he did was prescribe me benzodiazepines, and I felt all the side effects that came with it. Like, I was calm for sure, but I was, I was so sedated and tired, and it, it definitely took away my focus and edge when I was playing, and I found myself feeling a little bit depressed and almost like I, like thinking like, "I don't wanna be out here golfing.

I just wanna go home and do nothing." Um, which is weird. It just kind of took my motivation away. And looked into the drug and saw all the side effects and how it basically turns you into a zombie, and I felt that, um, so I stopped taking those after two weeks. And long story short, I never solved the problem.

Like, I was never able to, like, really gain control of my s- myself again, so I could play the golf I used to play. Um, so I decided, you know, let's go study. Let's go to school, and instead of playing golf, I wanted to go to school to solve the problem. I ended up getting my PhD in biomedical engineering. Uh, it was in my PhD program that I learned a lot about the nervous system.

And, you know, at a high level, the nervous system is like a series of wires all throughout your body, um, and wires carry electricity through them, and your nerves carry electricity from your brain down to the rest of your body. And these electrical signals are responsible for everything working. So when your muscle contracts, that's, your brain sends a, an electric signal down towards the muscle through nerves to make your arm move.

For your heart to beat consistently, there's electrical signals happening. And I learned about something called the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve is, it connects, you know, your brain stem down to your heart, your lungs, your gut, and that's the wire inside the body that's responsible for slowing everything down.

So when your heart is beating out of your chest, when, you know, you're, you're stuck in like a fight or flight state, and you're not, you're really stressed out, and your digestion isn't working properly, the vagus nerve's job is to signal downward towards those parts of your body to just slow everything down.

So heart rate should drop when the vagus nerve is active. Breathing should drop when the vagus nerve is active. In my mind, I'm like, "That sounds really cool." And looked into this research where when you electrically stimulate the vagus nerve, 'cause again, nerves are like electrical wires. You can turn them on with electricity.

You can stimulate them And when you stimulate a branch of the vagus nerve up in the kind of by the ear area, you can access it through the ear because it goes to the brain and then all the way down into the gut. But when you stimulate it, within a few minutes, heart rate comes down, breathing rate comes down.

Like all those things that are associated with being in a fight or flight state, panic attack, high stress, all those things come down after stimulating the vagus nerve with electricity. That's what the research said. That's what was published in all this data and all these, uh, these kind of journal articles.

And to me, I'm like, that's exactly what I needed when I was out there performing under pressure, and I couldn't calm my body down. And so I tried all the products out there at the time. They're just these little earbud devices. You put them in your ear, and you zap yourself basically. Um, and in order to make it less painful, all these electrodes require this messy gel paste.

So you're putting this gel inside your ear, and it's really gross and sticky. Um, and then it's not as, you know, painful and sharp when you're stimulating your nerve. But I tried it, and I didn't notice any difference. When I, I took these products out on the golf course, and I'm like, "I didn't notice anything."

I just... Like, I could feel the stimulation. I feel it in my ear, but I don't feel my body shifting into, like, a more relaxed state. I'm like, "What's going on?" Um, and I kept looking into it, and it's like, yeah, you gotta use it, like, twenty minutes a day every day for four to six weeks before you start to notice anything.

And I'm like, that's-- no, I wanna feel better now. I don't wanna, I don't wanna have to do this for weeks before I finally notice something. Um, the insight I had or question I asked was, what if I just cranked up the power, like, ten times stronger? Like, really stimulate the vagus nerve to get it working, like, right away.

And so I tried that. I built my own product, and I, I cranked up the power about ten times stronger than what was recommended, and I-- or not, I wouldn't say recommended, but what's typically done. And after several weeks of shocking the heck out of myself, um, you know, I figured out how to create a new type of material that can deliver ten times more energy to the nerve without shocking you.

And I found that when you apply it, instead of inside the ear, we come right under the ear. 'Cause part of the vagus nerve, when it goes to the brain, travels down, um, a little bit towards the brain stem. So when you hit it right under the ear, you're actually getting a larger t-like trunk of the tree, you know, a larger branch of the nerve.

So you're getting more vagus nerve fibers activating than if you went just inside the ear. On top of ten times more power, like we are really stimulating this nerve here. And I felt the-- uh, personally, when I tried it, I felt that feeling I was hoping to feel. I'm like, "I don't care what the science says," like that made me feel amazing.

And I felt like I wanted to just close my eyes, maybe take a little nap. Sometimes it felt like my face was just kind of floating up into the air, like almost like, uh, I don't know, like I'm, I'm getting a little high off of it or something. Like really cool feeling. And that was kind of the how I discovered, you know, our technology.

It was just a lot of trial and error, just trying a lot of things, learning how the nervous system worked. Um, and so where we're at today is we've done a lot of clinical studies validating the product. We designed our form factor to be this little portable, uh, it's smaller than a cell phone, but there's no wires, there's no apps, no Bluetooth, no gel paste.

It's meant for people to take with them when they're out there in the real world, right? Like a lot of times, stress and anxiety are, I'd say most of the time, these anxiety episodes occur in the real world, not like in your living room. Um, of course, they can happen anywhere, but at least for me, I would get these panic attacks on the golf course, which means I need something I can use on the golf course.

You just take the cap off, it's got the little stimulators there, and y-you are gonna feel that shift. Like you will feel everything just, ah, like you can take a deep breath again. Your heart comes down from your throat back into your, you know, where it should be in your chest, and shoulders relax. And so it was basically just I built a product to solve my own problem that never existed and now, I mean, there's millions of people who report feeling similar types of anxiety every single day.

Um, and we're just on a mission to help people find something that works so they don't have to take benzos, and that's really our mission. Dr. Kevin here, and if you're finding value in this conversation and you aren't already subscribed to the WorkReady Podcast, I'd be grateful if you'd take a minute to hit the subscribe button on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

We drop new conversations every Tuesday, so this just ensures that you're never gonna miss the latest episode. Okay, let's get back into it Such an awesome story. And could you maybe talk a little bit more about what those research, uh, projects have looked like and some of the benefits that people have either reported or that you've been able to validate clinically?

So our first study was just a safety study. You know, if we're cranking up this much power, we wanna make sure there's no side effects for people. Second study, we went to a golf course, hit... We set up like a high-stress, somewhat of a high stress, but like a golf challenge that people had to complete, and we would just rate their state anxiety, and we'd measure their biometrics while they're doing it.

Uh, and so we'd have them do the task once, rate their anxiety, then they'd stimulate the vagus nerve for ten minutes, and then do the task again, rate their anxiety, and just do pre/post. And so we had a placebo group as well, and in that one, um, we were looking at what's the average reduction of state anxiety in a single session.

And so for, for context, things like breathwork, meditation, um, they're typically between, like, fifteen to twenty-five percent of an average anxiety reduction within about twenty minutes of doing that. Um, so it's, it does take some effort to get, you know, some, call it twenty-five percent max reduction of, of your state anxiety in the moment.

Uh, with benzos, it's about thirty-seven percent within about fifteen minutes of taking them, is the average reduction of your state anxiety And so in our study, we saw, we saw a thirty-six percent average reduction in state anxiety. So almost the same as a benzo and much more effective than breathwork meditation within, you know, a ten-minute period.

Um, again, this is just the data we found, and it was twice as effective as placebo. Placebo, we still saw about eighteen percent reduction. So we saw that it works, uh, in our first study, and then the second one that we did was a PTSD group. So we're looking at real clinical, like really bad peop- you know, state anxiety, panic attacks, and, um, so this was pretty intense group that we worked with.

But same thing, we, we made them... It's funny, we, we used a clinically validated stress test specifically for PTSD. So there's like a math test that you can take on the computer, and it, it's like clinically validated to trigger PTSD people. I don't know how it, it works, but we got that test, and we had people consent to take the test.

And when they're taking this test, I mean, we're measuring their heart rate, we're measuring their HRV, their, their muscle tension, like everything's going up. And it's like no wonder a couple people had full-blown like panic attacks, and they had to withdraw. Um, but that was a good one, and we were looking at, in that study, of all the people that take it, what is the percentage of everyone that achieves what's called a clinically meaningful reduction?

So we're not looking at the average reduction per person. We're looking at across the board, basically how many people are gonna achieve a clinically meaningful benefit that do this. Um, for meditation, breathwork, you know, the, the classic, um, kind of free natural things, it hovers between like thirty and thirty-five percent of people achieve a clinically meaningful benefit after a single session.

Benzos are about seventy-three percent, uh, within about thirty minutes to an hour. So again, that's kind of the standard that we're, we're looking at. For us, within a s- with a single ten-minute use, we achieved sixty-seven percent. So To, to my knowledge, that is the highest non-drug, uh, success rate for people that have used it.

Um, small, you know, small population, and it was just PTSD, right? Like, we're not targeting a huge, broad population. But to us, it just showed that it's a... You know, when we're looking at clinically meaningful outcomes, this is one of the most effective ways to calm people down. But when we look subjectively, I mean, we're usually sitting in the 90 to, like, 95% success rate.

You know, if I give this to 10 people, nine out of the 10 are going to say it makes them feel better. So, uh, it, it was all rigorous FDA quality research, right? Uh, we got connected to some addiction recovery clinics, um, a handful of different, like, police departments, fire departments, uh, connected with Rich from The Recharge Room a couple years ago.

And, you know, it's, I guess, it's not, it's not really that complicated, but it's just a little product that fits in your pocket, and any time you feel like you're having this flare-up or you're freaking out or having an anxiety attack, you just pull it out, hold it right under your, your ear for a few minutes, and you're back to baseline.

Like, that's the idea. And it works, you know, most of the time. I mean, I think in one of the studies we ran with, with Rich at The Recharge Room, it was like 94% of over 1,000 first responders said they felt relaxed after the first session. So it, it works pretty f- pretty consistently, uh, for a lot of people.

So I would say, you know, we're not trying to replace, like, breathwork and meditation. I think those are amazing tools to do every single day as just a, a general wellness practice. But it's, it's meant for the moments when those things just will not work, right? When you are in full-blown fight or flight, this is the best way to pull yourself out of it as fast as possible without drugs.

Like, boom, that's it. That's what we're doing. And yeah, it tends to be a lot of like, like I said, the high-stress industries are benefiting from it the most Well, you mentioned Rich Ganley a couple times in the Recharge Room. We've had Rich on the WorkReady podcast, and he walked us through, uh, that whole process.

And I'm on the, the medical advisory board for the Recharge Room, not trying to give a, a commercial here, but I think to your point-- So I, I just pulled up a couple slides here. So in fact, I'm gonna share my screen just so that we can show this to our audience. But, uh, first responders have a for- a 15-year shorter lifespan, eight to nine times more likely to develop cancer, five to six times more likely to experience cardiovascular events, and higher rates of P- PTSD, depression, anxiety, and suicide.

And so pretty incredible, uh, you know, how, how those, uh That profession in particular is impacted by, by these things. But the cool part here is, you know, when we look at this, again, our re-reviewed study, ninety-seven percent felt more relaxed, ninety-five, almost ninety-six improved mood, ninety-one percent reduced stress and anxiety, less pain, faster recovery, improved longevity.

So just some incredible results by bringing all these things together. Rich is, uh, just a great person and, and wants to help people, but he talks a lot about this, uh, he calls it the synergy of togetherness, where, you know, each of those modalities on their own are awesome, but when you combine them, there's like an exponential impact.

And, and I do know that the vagus nerve, uh, stimulator was one of the first things that he brought into it, like you said, and just like a very tangible way to help people bring things down. F-for people in our audience who maybe struggle with sleep just because they-- You know, I hear this all the time.

People say, "I just lay in bed, and my m-mind's racing a million miles an hour, and I just can't calm down." Like, is that a scenario where someone could benefit from this? Yeah, a hundred percent. Like, this is not a tool for insomnia. Um, insomnia is a little bit more of a deeper neurological problem. But if you typically stay awake because of stress or your thoughts are racing, which is very common, this is an awesome tool for that because when your mind is racing, typically that's due to, you know, glutamate in the brain, which is firing your nerves, your neurons.

Whereas GABA has the opposite effect of that. So when you stimulate the vagus nerve, we're using the natural form of electricity to signal to the brain to open up GABA receptors. And when the GABA receptors open, everything slows down. So it's almost like an off switch for racing thoughts. And that's probably our second most common use case is middle of the night wakeups, right?

Or like right before people go to bed, they'll just do it for a few minutes, and it just helps them finally get back to sleep. Um, again, not a cure for insomnia, but a great little tool if you're one of those people where your brain's going crazy before bed. Um, it can help you just calm down, relax a little bit.

So- Talk to us a little bit more about, like, how you've actually started to integrate some of these tools in different, uh, professions, like especially with people who may be police officers or, uh, first responders who may be in those high-intensity situations where, you know, fight or flight is something that y- they oftentimes get into that state just because of the nature of their work and how they've been able to leverage this tool.

We created the product originally for, I guess I, I would call it performance anxiety, but if I were to make that a little broader, I'd say any kind of situational anxiety flare-up. So this is not necessarily for, like, all-day, low-level, chronic anxiety, but more situational, where it just flares up out of nowhere and it's, like, full-blown, like, panic attack or a fight or flight response, stress response, anxiety attack, things like that.

So in the beginning, we just thought through, you know, who are the people that experience these situationally? Maybe not all day, every day, but it's kinda obvious when it comes to your mind. When you are out there in the field, you gotta be locked in. You know, there's... oftentimes there's people's lives are on the line, and they're not constantly anxious, but after a traumatic situation You know, they might go to sleep that night and a memory pops into their mind and, like, causes, like, a, a little mini panic attack.

And the more that happens, the more they realize, like, "I gotta do something about this 'cause this isn't going away on its own." Well, a lot of our audience, they are first responders, they're people who work in the trades, construction workers. They're putting in long hours, you know, oftentimes high-risk situations.

And we also have people who are executives at, at companies who are listening and learning about how to better take care of their workforce. So how do you see a tool like this being something that a company can provide to their workforce to enhance, uh, their team members' ability to, to manage that stress, to be able to perform at their highest level, live their best life both at work and off the job?

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a... In my mind, this should be kind of a non-negotiable, like, essential that employees in high-stress environments need to have somewhere, right? Whether that's in their pocket on them at all times, or maybe there's, like, a space where they dedicate and say, "Hey, if you ever need to recover, go over there and use the Hulus device."

But the, the products we have, the, the one that we're selling, um, our flagship product, is that little portable, right, little handheld device. So if you're on the go, this is what you take with you to calm down. So you keep it in your pocket or your bag, and you just pull it out, instantly turns on, push it here, and 30 seconds to a couple minutes, that's all you need to do.

Like, that's the beauty of it is a lot of people don't even realize that, you know, their brain might not actually be operating at full capacity. They just think it's normal to be like, "Well, it's a stressful job. That's just the way it is." It's like, I don't know, if, if you hand this out to your team and just try it.

Be like, "Everybody, first five minutes of your workday, try this for just five minutes," and see how the f- the next hour of their performance improves. Like, it will improve, especially if it's some kind of, like, mental-related performance activity. Um- But it's a product that employees can take home with them.

They can use it in their car before they get out of their car, walk inside and see their spouse and kids, right? Just, "Hey, before you take work home with you, reset your brain in the car before you walk inside and actually be a pleasant human when you get home in the evening." You know, they can use it at night before they go to sleep.

Um, use it first thing in the morning before they get to work. Use it on the job at work. I mean, it is just like an all-purpose, like, I don't, I don't know, just tool to help you stay calm and feel good throughout the day in every situation. So we do have a lot of, uh, tech companies that have actually purchased, you know, big bundles of these for their employees.

Um, and through, you know, some of the first responder efforts we've been doing, we-we're starting to get a lot more, you know, first responders. Um, some construction companies are buying them, tech companies. But yeah, I think employee wellness is, is definitely a big one that we're just kind of barely getting into lately.

When does he say that? I almost think, like, this could be a form of PPE. You know, it's, it's personal protective equipment. It's, it's something that allows your brain to f-fire or function, perform at a higher level. And when you're cognitively more capable, you're gonna be not only more productive, but you're also gonna be safer when...

especially when you're performing high-risk tasks. So yeah, I, I s- definitely see a direct application. All right. Let's get, let's get this PPE approved. Get it out there. Well, Nick, um, and just to be clear, I have no financial ties to Hulis. I, I just, I personally think that it's an incredible innovation. Um, I've really enjoyed learning about it, and it's been something that I think that just making our audience aware of could be a game changer for them.

Nick, uh, if you were to leave our audience with three things, what, what would those be? Well, I guess I'll just kinda think through the three things that have had the biggest impact in my life in the last several years since starting the business. But, um, I would say, one, the brain is changeable. Like, with the right effort and the right tools, you can,

you can change your brain to be any state you want.

So if you are anxious all the time, uh, sorry, sorry, not sorry, but that's kind of a choice to stay there. Like, the brain is totally changeable. Um, now, if you're trying a lot of things and stuff's not working, then, you know, that's where, um, we just continue to improve and, and seek new things. But... And that would probably lead me to number two, that persistence is probably more important than optimism, which sounds kinda weird.

But, like, a lot of people say, like, you know, "Just be positive. Focus on the positive," like, "We'll get there." But for me, I'm like, I don't know. Oftentimes, like, I just found being persistent, like regardless if, if I, if I'm optimistic or not, like persistence typically leads to po- the results you want. Um, and so in that case, if, if your nervous system is in a bad state and you've been trying something, most people are like, "All right, let's, let's be optimistic, and maybe we'll get there."

But if- what if you're not getting there? Then persistence comes next, right? Like, keep doing it. Just keep doing it, and eventually good stuff happens if you persist. You know, I think giving up is exactly what it is. Like, you gave up. It-- You stopped, and sometimes persistence takes years, and I'm still persisting today.

Like, I built a product. I'm trying to persist and get people aware, and I, I'm gonna be persisting for the next several years probably. Yeah, the brain, you-- like, you can, you can change your brain. Like, you don't have to be stuck with the, these negative thought loops if that's someone, if, if that's a state you're in.

But to get out of that, to get into the state you want it to be, it requires persistence, right? Can-- Just do the things. And then third, I don't know, man. Like, third would be, like

Probably, like for me personally, just challenge myself. Like typically what I believe as challenging myself is not really challenging enough, and I try to just... Lately I've been thinking think 10 times bigger than what I would typically think, and it makes my heart race a little bit. But I realize, like, pretty much any problem is solvable if you just put your mind to it.

Like, it can be solved. And I usually find problems typically are easier solved when you think way bigger. Um, I don't know how to explain that, but like, you know, typically if you're thinking of solving really, really big problems, there's usually only one way to do it. If you're trying to solve small problems, there might be a lot of ways to do it, and the more ways you have to analyze, the more stress.

Um, so I've been trying to focus on solving bigger problems, and what do you know? When you solve bigger problems, it has a bigger impact on your life. And I'm like, "Why would a-- why was I always focused on these little problems? Let's solve big problems 'cause it has a bigger impact." So, um, that would probably be I don't know if that was helpful or not, but, uh- No, that, those are great

remain unstoppable, persist and solve big problems, and your life will be great a year from now if you do those things. I love it. Nick, is there anything that we didn't cover in this conversation that you wanna make sure that we, we do cover? I don't think so. I mean, there's, there's a lot that could be said, uh, in any, uh, any of the things we talked about.

But I'm on Instagram mostly, that's where I post. I don't do a lot of YouTube or TikTok. We're on TikTok, but I'd say mostly like TikTok and Instagram is where I'm gonna be posting stuff. Um, so if you guys wanna follow along with stories that I share about what it's like to grow a business and share my learnings as we go, that's a good place to follow us.

Obviously you can try our products at our website at hulus.com. We are on Amazon actually, so people could go check out our listing on Amazon. It's pretty new there, so we're trying to get our positive reviews up. So if anybody wants to buy one and leave us a five star if you like it, that would be amazing.

Um, but yeah, that's kinda, it's kinda pr- how I would say at this point, if people wanna stay following us from this point forward. Nick, thank you for sharing your story. I personally am inspired just by the fact that you had this, this issue, you didn't give up, you persisted like you just talked about.

You wanted to solve it, and you had the energy to actually create something that's, like, very meaningfully impactful to a lot of people. And I think that you're just scratching the surface on the impact that you can have. And so we're grateful today to talk about this just to bring more awareness to this as a possible solution for people who, you know, may be caught in that cycle of anxiety or depression or PTSD and are just looking for another opportunity to have that impact on the way that they think, the way that they operate, the way they manage, manage stress.  So thank you so much for taking the time to have the conversation with me.

Yeah, for sure, man. Appreciate it.

Thanks for the time. And thanks for following us on the WorkReady Podcast. Again, as a reminder, we drop new episodes every Tuesday, and so make sure to follow us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get those.

Make sure to subscribe so that you get notified every time we drop a new episode. And until next time, take care of yourself, take care of your team, and stay Work Ready.