The Accidental Safety Pro Podcast

This is the Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded October 22nd, 2024. My name is Jill James, HSI's Chief Safety Officer, and today, our guest is Jason Bacigalupo. Jason is a human performance coach. His expertise lies in guiding people toward reaching their peak performance levels. Jason is currently a performance coach with Vimocity. Jason joins us today from Bradenton, Florida. Welcome to the show.

Jason Bacigalupo: Jill, thanks so much for having me on. Grateful to be here. Excited to be on with y'all today, so thank you.

Jill James: Well, Jason, people might've listened to this introduction and thought, "Human performance coach? I thought this was the Accidental Safety Pro podcast. What the heck is Jill doing with a human performance coach on this podcast?" What is the intersectionality, assuming there is one? Jason, want to tell us a little bit about yourself, and let's dig into what that intersectionality is as we go.

Jason Bacigalupo: Absolutely. Yeah, there may be nothing more accidental than me being aligned with safety. I've had the opportunity over the last 15 years or so to work with individuals and athletes on really helping them, as you noted in the open, help them boost their performance. That can come in many forms, whether it's thinking about strength, or speed, or just more generally, being able to do their basic activities of daily living. It's helping people be able to do the things that they really want to be able to do. It was funny, several years ago when my wife and I lived in Atlanta, she [inaudible 00:01:52] me one day and she said, "Hey, I just got this really cool outreach from a company in Seattle. They're interested in what I do, and what do you think?" Of course, the backstory there is I once joked with her that the only West Coast that I wanted to live on was the West Coast of Florida. What it actually opened my eyes to was, well, what else is out there? If we do move, and I need to look and see what's out there, what kind of performance coach jobs are out there in Seattle? It just so happened that there was this small startup company who was working with the utility industry. Now, I know really nothing about the utility industry. In fact, it was still pretty naive, Jill, to use your word, to the intersection between the work that I was doing in human performance and safety. As it turned out, it became a really good partnership, and had the opportunity to go out to Seattle and begin working with folks in the workforce, utility workers primarily, but also folks in manufacturing and in maritime, not only understanding the nature of the work they do, but some of the challenges they faced, really getting an understanding for the fact that at the end of the day, these folks use their bodies every single day to do their job. They're really making the world work. Giving back to those folks, I grew up in a small rural community in Vermont, where both, from a family perspective, folks were working hard and using their bodies to do their job. My dad is a welder by trade. He grew up around farmers. Really, having an opportunity to give back to a group of folks who really don't always have access to the best tips and strategies, and really trying to find a way forward to help those folks be able to move and feel their best. That's kind of how I wound up where I am today in working with populations to help them really be able to maximize their potential, both at work, but then away from work as well.

Jill James: Yeah. As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about a piece of my career was in occupational, working in an occupational medicine clinic, a department, rather, within a clinic. One of the groups of employees that we worked with often were firefighters. The reason for that was because of the physicality of the job, particularly for volunteer firefighters, who can go from whatever it is they're doing in their day-to-day life, to having to carry, lift, run, walk, climb, with a self-contained breathing apparatus on. Statistically, what we knew about what stresses and strains that put on the body, and the higher likelihood they had of having cardiac events because of it. The occupational medicine department was really engaged with them for that reason. When we think about the utility industry, Jason, for anyone who doesn't maybe know about the physicality of that work, do you want to describe a little bit about that?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, absolutely. From dawn till dusk and well beyond, these are folks that are getting up, and they are getting up in bucket trucks. They're reaching overhead with hot sticks to try to repair lines. They're moving heavy objects. They're constantly using their bodies on a day-to-day basis to perform labor-intensive work. If you think about just when the power goes out and what's required of that individual to get that power back on? Well, it's a lot of overhead work. It's a lot of awkward positions. It's a lot of things that maybe we as individuals, we take for granted, but at the end of the day, it's very taxing on the body. These folks get up and they do it day after day after day. Really, for those individuals, it's not uncommon, when we've surveyed the workforce, it's not uncommon for that particular line of work to report, roughly 80% of it are going to say they deal with some sort of pain or discomfort. The reality is, if you're shilling up to work every single day in pain, the likelihood that not only you can perform your job as well as you'd like to, but then you're also just more generally aware, when we're in pain, what we know about brain science is that when we're in pain, we're commonly distracted. That means our ability to recognize hazards is diminished, our ability to focus on our tasks is diminished, and no one wants to be in pain. When I ask folks, "Hey, how do you typically deal with pain?" Jill, what do you think the number one answer they give me for how they deal with pain?

Jill James: Well, I'm guessing their answers have something to do with either Advil or alcohol. Did I get one of them right?

Jason Bacigalupo: You got them both, right. Yeah, Advil, Aleve, six-pack of beer, whatever it is, I just don't want to be in pain anymore. The hard thing is, that doesn't solve the problem. It masks it, but it doesn't actually provide that individual with long-lasting relief. Typically, what we might see is then we're just going to kind of deal with it. We're going to just accept the fact that we're supposed to be in pain, and that's just how things are. What we know about pain is that it's a precursor to something more serious. What I love about the work that I get to do is really teach someone how to take care of their muscles and joints, how to position their body, how to optimize their daily performance, so that not only are they able to perform their work with less discomfort, but they can go home at the end of the day feeling great, so that they could get up the next day and do it again.

Jill James: Yeah. Jason, I just want to back up a little tiny bit. As you're describing all of these things, and I mentioned that you're a human performance expert, how does one become that? Tell us a little bit about your educational background and training.

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, so it's funny. My undergrad was actually in business, in marketing and management. Along the way, I started coaching. I was living in Vermont, I was coaching football, and having a lot more fun doing that than I was my actual day job. It got the wheels turning. How can I sort of parlay the things that I've been doing alongside this thing that I really enjoy, which is helping people and really helping people perform? What that led me to was going back to grad school and study exercise science. It happened to coincide with the fact that I didn't want to shovel snow anymore, so I packed up and moved to Atlanta and enrolled in graduate school for exercise science. Began going down that path, and while I was going down that path, was very lucky, very fortunate to meet a lot of helpful people who put me in a great position to not only continue my coaching career, but then also learn and understand the field of strength and conditioning. I was getting this not only this great education, but also this great hands-on experience. I was able to do both at the same time, learn and apply, learn and apply, and repeat that process. It really started to guide me down the path of this bigger picture idea of how to help people, and really help them with whatever their goals are, whether it is from an athletics perspective and all the things that athletes want to do to maximize their performance, or just on a day in and day out basis for the average person. I want to be able to perform my activities of daily living pain-free, and give them the right support so that they can be able to do those things.

Jill James: Yeah. Jason, you mentioned a bit ago about the way that people show up at work, and when they're distracted by their pain, what it does to, obviously their work performance, but their ability to keep their mind on their job and to perform those tasks safely. That really is the intersection. I recently, for those of you who listen to the podcast often, you might recall that one of my most recent guests, Catherine West, was talking about wellness. She was talking about four pillars of wellness, one of those pillars being physical health. That's what we're talking about today, in my opinion, is that physical health piece. I want to hear, how do you start? Where do you start when you are working with, let's say, the utility industry? I know you work with other industries too, but where do you start in assessing... Is it an assessment? What does beginning look like?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, great question, Jill. When we get ready to launch a program, typically we'll have worked with the key stakeholders to identify the groups that we need to start with. We have an idea just working with utilities so closely of some of the risks to some of the challenges that the workforce faces, but we also know that right up front, we want to get buy-in from the individuals themselves. We're typically going to kick off with some sort of a workshop. What's fun about that is by and large, when we walk into a room, people are not thrilled to be there. It's like, "Oh, why are we talking about movement health? Really? You're going to hand me a roller? What am I supposed to do with this thing?"

Jill James: You said movement health? Is that the key word I just heard you say?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jill James: Okay, okay. All right.

Jason Bacigalupo: Great question. We're really trying to set the foundation to help people understand how to take care of their muscles and joints. Part of that is giving them a massage roller. It's kind of like a little stick that they can use to roll out their muscles. There's going to be a lot of jokes about that, "Hey, maybe I should whack my buddy with it. What do we use this thing for?" For a lot of folks, they're a little bit cold, not sure what they're about to get themselves into. Really, within the first five minutes, we want to give them an aha moment. We have been trying to touch their toes. We hear some groans from the room as the floor is about a foot and a half away from where the roller stops as they try to touch their toes. Then we get into rolling, and we start rolling out the muscles. All of a sudden, this light bulb starts to go off. You hear the room, "Oh, wow, this feels so good. Oh man, this spot is really tight." There's this camaraderie building as we kind of go through this process together, and we start to roll out different areas of the body that have traditionally, for a lot of these folks, been very tight. At the end of that, we're going to retest. What they're going to find is that the floor gets closer. For a lot of these folks, it's the first time they've tried something and actually seen a benefit from it. Now, we're laughing, we're joking around, we're having a good time, and it really sets the strong foundation for that personal benefit, and how this really is something that they can utilize in their day-to-day to help themselves feel better.

Jill James: That's beautiful. When employers come to you wanting help, do they usually come to you when they maybe have a high propensity for musculoskeletal injuries that they're recording and illnesses, or do some come to you from a preventative view, or is it a little bit of both? How does that work? How do people get to you?

Jason Bacigalupo: When we start to work with companies, typically, one, when we go in, we know that MSD injuries are going to account somewhere between 30 to 50%, or at least sprain and strain injuries, somewhere between 30 to 50% of all their injuries. It's a high number. Commonly, it's going to be the most costly injury that they're going to have. It's not only the largest injury category, often also the most costly injury category. They're looking to reduce that number, but do it in a way where they're getting out in front of it.

Jill James: Okay.

Jason Bacigalupo: We also know that even if people aren't injured, based on statistically just what we've seen in the workforce, there's a high likelihood that they're in pain. Really, what we're trying to do is be out in front of that opportunity for an injury to occur. If pain is really a precursor to injury, we want to be out in front of that in that early action phase, by giving people the right tool so that they can start to address and mitigate that pain, and increase the likelihood that we're going to see those injury rates, that lagging indicator, drop down as a result.

Jill James: Yeah, and for our audience, Jason said, reducing sprains, strains, and MSDs, or musculoskeletal disorders. Jason, you work with people to give them a framework to take care of their muscles and joints. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that? You just gave a really great example of how you get their attention. What happens with an engagement? What does it look like? What do you do?

Jason Bacigalupo: We really want to provide aha moments to give people an experience. Yeah, the rolling is a big part of that. We also, it seems a little bit counterintuitive, we actually walk through how breathing can actually help the body feel better. Usually when we start talking about breathing, people are kind of like, "What does breathing have to do with feeling better?" The reality is, we breathe... Jill, what would you guess, how many times a day do we breathe?

Jill James: Hundreds of thousands.

Jason Bacigalupo: Great guess, great guess. About 20,000 times per day. There is one muscle whose primary job it is to make sure that we get air in the body, and it's called the diaphragm.

Jill James: That's right.

Jason Bacigalupo: If our diaphragm stops doing its job, and there are a number of reasons why that could occur, maybe we sit for a long time in static positions, and we start to cut off our diaphragm's ability to function normally, we're going to start offloading that job of breathing because it's pretty important onto other muscles, usually our neck and shoulder muscles. If you think about the utility worker who's working overhead, and they're already stressing their neck and shoulder muscles a lot just from the positions they have to be in, and we're adding to that by having muscles perform a task that they're not really meant to do, like breathing 20,000 times per day, we start to stress that area even more. Providing people with the right set of drills and skills, one drill that we like to use a lot is called box breathing. The Navy SEALs use it quite a bit, but it's a great way to reset the diaphragm and retrain the diaphragm on the way it's intended to work. When we do that, we start to take some stress off of our neck and shoulder muscles, and we provide support and stability to the spine. It becomes a great way to connect with folks how important breathing is to their day-to-day, and then focusing on dynamic movement, and getting people up and moving around a little bit and working on... When we think about dynamic movement, we're focused on moving all the different mobile joints in the body, so joints like our hips, and our ankles, and our shoulders, and focusing on moving those areas of the body, as opposed to static stretching. The reality is, athletes stretch as their primary means of performing or preparing to perform in about 25 years. What we've learned is that getting those joints ready to move is a much more effective way to increase body temperature, stimulate synovial fluid, which is like motor oil for the body, get everything really moving the way that it's intended to move, so that when we need to perform and call on the different areas of the body, muscles and joints collectively to perform tasks, they're in a much better position to do that.

Jill James: Beautiful. I love that you talked about diaphragmatic breathing. I personally teach breath and meditation in my local community, and I've had the great advantage of being able to teach diaphragmatic breathing and presentations at conferences this last year as it relates to a method to calm the central nervous system.

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, great way to de-stress from a situation, right?

Jill James: Yeah. It's such a fun awareness when, in front of audiences in the past year when I ask people to just think about, "Place your mind on your breath," and they're like, "What is this woo-woo stuff?" Then ask people to place a hand on where they feel their breath in their body, and often it's the nose, or the throat, or the upper chest. It's rarely the diaphragm in that. Then of course, you teach them how to engage the diaphragm, and people are like, "Oh, my God, I had no idea. Oh, this feels so good. I feel so good. Oh, my gosh, I'm so calm." It's such a fun thing to do with people. Yeah, and the joints, my gosh. That's beautiful. You teach, when you're engaging with employers, I am guessing you have to start from square one. People may not have any functional knowledge of anatomy from what a joint is to how joints work, to how do you care for them? What does that look like? I'm guessing, Jason, that you teach people how to take care of themselves after an engagement with you.

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, and really the idea for that initial workshop is to just set the foundation for people, so that they walk out with a framework for how to take care of their muscles and joints, and for some of these other considerations, like body positioning or nutrition, hydration, things like that, but giving them that framework, and then continuing to support it after the fact, and really embedding these concepts into their day, into their company infrastructure, so that whenever they show up to work, they're repeatedly exposed to these concepts. One of the biggest pieces of feedback, whenever we look at surveys and we ask people, "Hey, how did you like this workshop?" One of the biggest pieces of feedback from one of our last questions is, "Hey, make sure you give us time to do this. Provide us with an opportunity to do this." That next piece is continuing to reinforce all the things that we discussed by providing the resources and materials so that people can engage, so that people do have those prompts during their day, whether it's pre-work before they start their day, whether it's related to a job task that they're about to perform, but associating things to what's relevant to them, and making sure that it really does help set them up to be successful as they go into their day. It does start with rooting it in that personal benefit. When you walked out of that workshop, the goal is for you to have felt better than when you started, and even within the first five minutes, that felt better than when you started. If we're successful there, then that really does set that positive foundation for folks.

Jill James: How do you go about teaching optimized body positioning? You were talking about some of the activities that utility workers are often doing, but how do you teach them what to pay attention to in terms of their own control over their bodies and what they should be looking for?

Jason Bacigalupo: There was a time where we'd actually, we'd get out there and work with a group in the field, and walk through some of those things, and sort of practically apply it to the environment that they were in, but we also realized that that wasn't very scalable. Unfortunately, the only folks that got the benefit of that conversation were the ones that were there and present that day, and maybe a safety leader who could then share that communication elsewhere. What we started to do is look at the specific job tasks and the environment that they're performed in, the people that are performing them, and actually put those concepts on video, and walk through, "Hey, you're going to work from a bucket truck today, and this is the task that's being performed. Here's the optimized body position for that." What's cool about that is working with the actual workers and getting their feedback, so that we're putting together something that's relatable. Oftentimes, the best solutions come from the people that have been doing the tasks, so they learn through trial and error how to get to an optimized body position that reduces strain. Hearing their feedback and understanding what they deal with on a day-to-day basis, but we're not putting out something that conceptually sounds great, but practically can't be applied. We really want to meet those folks where they're at with things that are relevant. They love that, because they see themselves in the work when they see that video. Now, it becomes something that, "Hey, you know what? This makes sense, because the person on screen looks just like me doing a job that I do, and you know what? The suggestion is practical. I can actually realign my spine or my shoulders, get in the power zone, stagger my stance, whatever the recommendation is, I can see how I can do that, and I can make that adjustment for the work that I'm going to do."

Jill James: How do you talk about when people are... If you've done work in environmental health and safety for any amount of time, we've all heard some version of, "I just need to get that job done. I couldn't take time to wait for help," or equipment, or whatever, "I was trying to save this thing. This thing was falling, the patient was falling," the whatever, whatever, whatever, "I needed to do these things." How do you talk with people to, I guess, change behavior for those times that probably happen every day that might be a minor or major emergency, to keep them moving their body and optimizing that position as you're talking about?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, it's hard. Despite all of my knowledge and professional experience, just this weekend repairing a fence was in get it done mode. It really is, we don't bat a thousand on that, but where can we sort of in a just in time sort of mindset, whether it's within a pre-job briefing, or whether it's in another opportunity to connect the job task to the environment and say, "Hey, you know what? If your shoulder starts to tighten up, just back out of that position for a second." "Be mindful of the stress and strain that you're putting on your body if the opportunity arises to switch positions, to back out of that position for a moment, and reset, and then continue. Whatever you can do to take that half beat, and that's all it needs to be, just that half beat to reset and realign, so that you're optimizing your body position for a strenuous task, that's going to set you up for success." Wherever we can embed that message and help put it in the back of folks' mind, and again, maybe we don't bat a thousand, but if we can be seven out of 10 or six out of 10, then we're increasing the likelihood that that message resonates.

Jill James: Yeah, right, and repetition for sure. I work really hard on body positioning just as a breathing human being myself, with osteoarthritis in a bunch of joints, and something a physical therapist taught me years ago with getting in and out of my vehicle. That was to turn both of my hips, put both feet on the ground, and then get out, not the put the one foot and then get out, which I had a hard lesson to learn as a Minnesotan, and you step on a patch of ice, and pretty soon, you're under your vehicle. It didn't take much reinforcement to go, "Oh, turn whole body, set feet down, then stand."

Jason Bacigalupo: It's hard when we're in a hurry. That takes a half beat. We have to be intentional about that when we make that decision that we're going to do that, it's very intentional. That's part of it too. It's just reinforcing the idea of intent. Hey, when we're going to go about this task, whatever it is, or even when we're going to warm up and we don't need to spend a long time, but if we do that intently, these small little actions, if we do them consistently and with intent, they add up to tremendous opportunity to reduce the likelihood that we deal with an injury.

Jill James: Yeah. Jason, you mentioned also nutrition and hydration, and I bet you'll say something about sleep, but how do you tackle those items with employees, and what are you teaching them?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, it really comes down to providing practical education typically through video. What we learned, I think, through the course of our evolution and coaching, and just more generally the way that adults learn is it's going to be short bits of information, YouTube culture, and so short bits of information. Can we give someone two or three takeaways at the most, in maybe a video that takes 90 seconds, but something that's practical? For example, if we're thirsty, we're already about one to 2% dehydrated. It's already going to be indicative of a cognitive decline that's going to impact our ability to reason well, to perform, et cetera. From a hydration perspective, it's making sure that we're constantly, we have water available to us. When we're working in hot humid environments, it's taking breaks to cool down and ensure that our body has a chance to reset a little bit, so we're getting our internal temperature down. It's those little things that if we can consistently impart them into the day, that's going to help that individual out. From a nutrition standpoint, most of the folks that we're going to see are going to be on the go. What are some practical things that they can be doing? What are some food that travel well? Whether we're cutting up fruits and veggies, and other types of proteins that travel well, or maybe we're stopping really quick to grab something. What's something reasonable and healthy that we can grab while we're on the go? Coming up with solutions for folks and providing those ideas to them, so that at least they're thinking about it, and at least having the opportunity to, while they're out there working hard, make the best possible decisions that they can make for themselves.

Jill James: In terms of the benefits that employees that you work with take into their home life, what do you see or hear from people as success stories? Assuming, I'm making an assumption here that you do.

Jason Bacigalupo: We really want to try to tie this to home and tie... We really want to try to tie home and work together as much as we can, because the reality is, and we talk about this in our workshops, each one of us, for me, I share a little bit of a personal story, but it's about having a six-year-old son. The reality is, if I'm in pain, my pain doesn't just impact me, it impacts my ability to do the things with him that he wants to be able to do, whether it's throw a football, kick a soccer ball, get down on the floor and tackle. Whatever those things are, if I'm in pain, it doesn't just impact me, it impacts other people that are important to me, and it impacts things that I want to be able to do. To your point, Jill, whatever moves the needle for people, we want to open up those avenues and those doors to then be able to do those things as well, so that when they go home, if their hobby is fishing, if their desire is to travel, whatever those things are, time with family, we want to make sure that we're opening up those avenues for people. One of the cool things, one of the things I love is that people take these things home with them. Countless stories of, "Hey, you know what? I took my roller home and my wife stole it, and so I need to get another one," or, "My son is a hockey player. A lot of the stuff they're doing in hockey is stuff like what you're doing. This is really cool, and I've shared a lot of this stuff with him, and now we're doing some of this stuff together." It's really neat to see when that shared experience that starts at work transitions to home, and other people get involved, and it starts to become more of a family thing. That camaraderie is built no matter where you are, and that shared bond of, "Hey, you know what? I feel better, and because I feel better, we're able to do all the things that we want to be able to do together."

Jill James: Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. When it comes to my profession and the profession of the people who are listening, environmental health and safety professionals, when you are working with companies, are they people with job titles like mine? Are they generally co-leading or leading these efforts with you? How does that, for people who are listening and are thinking, "Gosh, I think I need this in my organization, but is it really my job, or how would I start, or are there any collaborators?" What would you say to them, Jason?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, I think first, safety typically is commonly where we start, because it tends to be the most relatable aspect. I think one of the cool things about safety professionals is that they care about their team members and their workforce. This aligns, in a lot of cases, I was just having this conversation with someone the other day, but when companies have these initiatives, at central of that, or whether they're those pillars of wellbeing like I've heard you talk about before, or the concept of caring, when things like this align to that, it just sort of resonates with the safety team as a whole, but then also the opportunity to reduce injury rates and help people feel better. There's another group that's really important as well, and that's the operations folks. Ultimately, if we can help this feel like it's more of an organizational effort, and so that's where leadership comes into play, and make this feel like it's an organizational focus and effort, that's where that likelihood of success and what we see with our most successful companies that we work with, it's when operations and safety come together. This becomes an important aspect of what they do as just a day in and day out, "Hey, this is important, and so we're going to focus on it, we're going to build it into our safety culture, we're going to build it into our operations culture." Those two groups are co-mingled, and they're working hard together. That's where we see it really take off. That's where it's a lot of fun is when you have an operations leader sitting in on a conversation and going, "Oh, yeah, this is awesome. I can't wait to get this in front of my team." That's where it's a lot of fun, because to steal an old coaching cliche, the best ability is availability. From an operations perspective, if my folks are in pain, they're not as productive. If they're hurt, they're not available. If we can help, I think from a safety perspective, it's really about the wellbeing of the individuals. From the individual's perspective, it's about the personal benefit and, "Hey, what do I get out of this by doing this?" From an operations perspective, it's all about, "Hey, how do we help you be more effective at the work that you need to get done?"

Jill James: You talked about success. Do you want to share anecdotally a success story or anything about injury rates? Yeah, what does success look like? What have you seen and observed with some of the companies that you work with?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, so one of my favorite experiences goes back to actually when I first started with Vimocity in 2020. We were launching with a company, it was during COVID, it was in the fall. It was cold outside, there was frost on the ground. If you think back to COVID, everything had to be done outdoors, we had to wear masks, we were social distance, and so we're limited to about 10 people. We've got this group of people, so just imagine that environment. We're on a loading dock, trucks are running. It's not the most conducive environment to try to lead a workshop. Then add to that, we had one particularly cranky individual who was telling everybody what a waste of time this was, and he wanted to make sure everybody knew, including me, what a waste of time this was going to be. We get into the workshop and we start to roll. He's off to the side, got a group in front of me, people start rolling, they roll their calves. "Oh, man, this feels so good. Oh, wow, this kind of hurts." He's watching that, and he's kind of off to his side. Then I see him try the roller a little bit. Then we go into moving, and we're walking through some different moves. Everybody's up and doing stuff, and we're joking around and having a good time. Out the corner of my eye, I see him doing it too. We're going through all this together, everybody leaves, and at the end, we handed out a little postcard with some resources that they could follow along with QR code link, and a little, "Hey, here's the moves that we did," sort of thing. Hitting all that stuff out, everybody goes out to do their job. The next day, back at the same place, leading another workshop. The same guy who was telling everybody what a waste of time it was, came back to me, "Hey, you know what? I lost my postcard. Can I have one?"

Jill James: Oh, nice.

Jason Bacigalupo: That was really cool. By and large, that's the experience that we really want to put out there to people. It's to have them walk away with something that's so valuable that in that moment, they feel a personal benefit, and they want to continue engaging with it, that they embraced it on an individual level, and then we partner with the company to scale it and make it available to people on a day in and day out basis. When those two things come together, when those two aspects really are working in unison with one another, what we see on average is a 40% reduction in sprain and strain injuries.

Jill James: Wow.

Jason Bacigalupo: What we have people self-report back to us through surveying is on average, 90% say that they've experienced a reduction in pain through engaging in this approach. It really does have the potential to be impactful, and again, going back to something I said earlier, but it's small things, but if we can do them consistently day in and day out with intent, those small things, it's 1% better every day, but they add up to a lot in the long run.

Jill James: Yeah, exactly. Beautiful. That's a beautiful story. In terms of what an engagement with an employer looks like, if you're starting out, we talked about you being a coach and coaching, so if I'm using that analogy, do you feel like maybe you're starting out with the JV team, and then do you bring them up to varsity level? As in, do you start at one place, and then is there a longer term plan to even optimize further than that, or how does that work?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things that we've learned about the workforce in general is that there's a bit of a competitive aspect too, right? They're sort of competitive by nature, or they want to be pushed a little bit, especially when it comes to stuff like this. Starting out, "Hey, conditionally, here are the principles that... Here's where we start, but then here's where we add on. Here's as we think forward, other elements that we can build into the day that are going to allow you to level up." Again, keeping it simple and able to be adapted and integrated into the framework that that company is built and into that individual's day, but looking for those opportunities to level up, whether it's certain movements that tie to specific job tasks, and making it even more relevant to that individual, or one of the things that we're looking at adding now is more of a strength and activation series. That's something that people have been clamoring for. Thinking about all the different ways that we can continue to challenge people and level up a little bit, while also, again, keeping it simple and integratable into just the day-to-day for those individuals.

Jill James: As you're talking and talking about competition, I'm thinking about a news story that I heard, I think it was last week in my home state of Minnesota, I think it was Minnesota, about someone who had an emergency at the top of, I think it was a cell phone tower maybe, and they needed to do a rescue. The person doing the rescue needed to climb however hundred feet high in the air that was, and successfully did the rescue to get this person down and repel them down. The interview, as I was listening to this, the person who did the rescuing talked about the physicality of that, and talked about how difficult that was. It was, "Yes, we did the mission, yes, we got the person down safely," but in that interview, he was talking about the physicality of doing that climb and being able to do that. I'm thinking about maybe that person had the ability of having some kind of training from someone like you, but it wasn't lost on me when I saw them on the news. I'm like, "Yeah, nobody talks about that piece." Everybody's like, "Ooh, they saved the day," but how were they able to do that with their body?

Jason Bacigalupo: It's funny you mentioned that. One of the things that we've really started to see is this trend toward this concept of capacity. I think we see it more when we focus on more on serious injuries, the fatalities, and the energy wheel. There's a human capacity element to that too, that I think is encapsulated perfectly in your story. When you show up to work that day, do you have the capacity as an individual to perform your work safely? Do you have the physical capacity to execute the job tasks? Do you have the stamina and the longevity to be able to go home at the end of the day, and feel good enough to be able to come back and perform that task or those series of tasks again, well and safely? I love that. I love the story about that, because this is physically demanding work, and there is that sort of, whether we call it workforce resilience, fit for duty, however we want to characterize it, there is that element of physically demanding work. The more we can prepare ourselves for the work that we need to perform, the greater the likelihood that we go home safe at the end of the day.

Jill James: Do you see that with the individuals that you work with? Do they come to you and say, "Hey, now I can do X," or, "I was able to do Y," or that kind of thing?

Jason Bacigalupo: Well, even within a workshop, it's like, "No, before I came in, you asking me to touch my toes, there was zero chance I was ever going to be able to do that, but now I have more mobility than when I started," or, "I can get down to the ground and play with my grandkids now," or, "It used to be that if I got down on one knee to do something, I needed help to get up, and now, I can stand up on my own." This is pretty funny. We actually had someone reach out to us via email and say, "Hey, thank you so much. I used to need help for my husband to get up off the ground, and now I don't. He feels completely useless now because now he doesn't, I don't need his help to come over and help me get up off the ground."

Jill James: That's awesome. That's awesome. I know we've been talking about the utility industry, but I'm wondering, other industries that you commonly work with, I can absolutely see where this is a benefit to every industry, including people who are working in an office setting every day, and I'm thinking about healthcare workers, but tell the audience a little bit about if they're like, "Oh, Jason's been talking a lot about the utility industry. I'm not in the utilities. What about my industry?" What do you have to say in terms of who you work with?

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, we're very fortunate. We work a lot with utilities, but we also work with folks in the maritime industry and manufacturing. In some of those environments, it's really, it's a thankless environment. They're construction, they are put through the bases with some really hard, challenging, manual work that it's day after day. The opportunity to see and learn what some of the jobs are that are out there that people perform in order to keep the world working, and the ways in which they put their bodies on the line to do that work, it's pretty amazing to see. To have an opportunity to connect with them, to provide them with something that hopefully does help them out is a lot of fun, because yeah, whether it's utilities, or maritime, manufacturing, construction, something else, the reality is, people are likely dealing with some sort of pain, and there's a cascading effect of pain that we hear about constantly. I was thinking about someone that I knew long ago that, just outside of the things that they do on a day-to-day basis, they hurt their shoulder. Then that led to needing to go on medication, and leading to some of the challenges that come with going on medication repetitively, especially the types of medication that can become addictive.

There's this whole other cascading effect of pain that we don't really think about. If we're not really in tune with that, those are the types of injuries that also become life altering, whether it's a shoulder injury or a back injury. Really helping those folks have that framework and that way out of pain is something that we really embrace and appreciate the opportunity for. Fun fact for you, Jill, by the way. You raised the concept of the office. We've done some surveying of different members of the workforce. The field-based workforce reports roughly about 75 to 80% is saying that they're dealing with some sort of discomfort. Would you guess the office is higher or lower than that?

Jill James: Higher.

Jason Bacigalupo: It is, yeah. The office comes in a shade over 80%.

Jill James: Keep going.

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah. No, no. It just reinforces the fact that whether we're using our bodies, or we're stuck in static positions in an office setting, the odds are pretty high that as a workforce, as people walking around, we're dealing with some sort of discomfort.

Jill James: When I worked in healthcare, I spent a very large portion of my time doing ergonomic assessments for people who sat at workstations all day, or looking in microscopes all day. Those static positions, where people were reporting a constant knot in the shoulder, fingers that are falling asleep, elbow pain, sore necks, all of that. Gosh, did so much education just for that reason. I wasn't surprised by your statistic. I showed up at my local clinic a couple of weeks ago to check in at a reception desk, and the receptionist was wearing a brace on her wrist. I was looking at her body mechanics and I said, "Hey, could I offer you a couple of tips?" I said, "I see you've got that brace on your wrist." She's like, "Yeah, wrist really hurts." I said, "Do you also have a knot in your shoulder?" "Oh, yeah, every day." I said, "Here, let's just do an experiment." I had her bring her keyboard closer to her. I had her raise her chair up, so her elbows were at a 90 degree angle. I had her take her mouse out of the north 40 of her desk, and had her turn her body toward her monitor. She's like, "Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh." I said, "Just try that out for the rest of the day and see how you feel tonight." Anyway, it's so rewarding when you can do those sort of things that you're doing, Jason.

Jason Bacigalupo: Yeah, Jill. Love the fact that you took advantage of an opportunity to help somebody out, and lean into your ergonomic background a little bit, and provide that guidance for that individual. That's awesome. If you ever want to share any more ergonomic tips, we're always open to that side too.

Jill James: Happy to do it, happy to do it. Yeah, it's a good thing. It's a good thing to do. As we're getting ready to close out our time today, Jason, I am thinking about the sort of grumpy guy in the corner that you were talking about before. When you work with people, especially maybe people who are younger, or haven't maybe experienced a lot of pain in their life, or any pain in their life, and still have untouchable, because they haven't just personally had the experience, are you seeing ways to change their hearts and minds as well in terms of like, "Hey, I feel good. I don't have any pain yet. I'm young and agile."

Jason Bacigalupo: You know what's interesting? The younger demographic seems to be a little bit more split now. I think you definitely have the group that's, "Hey, you know what? I'm young. I got this covered." Sometimes, they do seem to be a little bit more open to this stuff to you because they've been, I think, to some degree, some of those folks, they might have athletic backgrounds, or they might have been exposed to some of these concepts of... They may be a little bit more open. What's interesting, and I learned this in talking with a woman who leads a technical training for a wind apprenticeship school in Texas, and what she was saying is a lot of this younger generation now, they're far more sedentary than generations past. As they're coming into the workforce and they're conditioning to the work, they're actually more prone or even potentially driving some of the injury because they're not as prepared, not as conditioned to the work. As part of her apprenticeship program, she spends a lot of time just working on physical readiness, and just helping them get accustomed to the work that they're going to do. They're going to be climbing wind towers and working confined spaces. Part of her focus is on helping just get them more physically ready for the work that they need to do, because coming in, they're not necessarily ready. I thought that was interesting.

Yeah, I think to your point, the stereotype, and I think it does still ring true, is that younger generation, "Hey, you know what? I got this covered. I'm a young gun. I'm bulletproof. I can run through a wall. We're going to get this done." I do wonder, and just as in had conversations, not just with her, but with others, is we're seeing a shift in the generation now, where maybe they're not quite as conditioned to the work as maybe they once would've been.

Jill James: Makes sense. Makes sense. Jason, this has been so good. I'm wondering if you have any last thoughts to share with our audience, or things that you wanted to say that we didn't cover today, or how do people who are listening are like, "How do I get started working with someone like Jason?" Maybe I just asked you too many questions at the same time, Jason.

Jason Bacigalupo: Well, I think this is, solving sprain and strain injuries, MSDs, it's a complex problem. There are number of factors that contribute to why they might happen in the first place, and why they ultimately do. Really from my perspective, leading into my coaching roots, but then also just more practically, what we try to do from a solution standpoint is try to simplify that a little bit. It's not necessarily easy, but I believe we can simplify the problem a little bit by focusing on movement health, helping people position their bodies for the strenuous tasks that they need to do, by helping them optimize their performance and the way they feel through nutrition, hydration, sleep, recovery, all the different factors that drive how we feel. If we can do little things consistently day in and day out, that's ultimately what can move the needle for us in the long run. That's where if we can spend five minutes, five to seven minutes doing something to prepare our bodies to perform, that's a huge win. If we can take that half beat to reposition while we're doing a task, that's a win. If we can make sure that we've got the right fuel for the job that we need to do, and we're giving ourselves some ample time to recover at the end of the day, so that we can wake up and do it all over again, that's a win. When we can do those things consistently, that's when not only are we going to maximize performance of the job, but we're going to feel our best at home for the things that we really want to be able to do. Again, time with kids, time with family, activities, hobbies that we have, fishing, hunting, traveling, whatever it is, we want to open up the world for people so that they can do the things that are most important to them.

Jill James: Jason, thank you so much to you and your team for taking care of the American workforce in the way that you're doing. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on the show today,

Jason Bacigalupo: Jill, it's an honor have been on. It's a privilege to be able to work with so many hardworking folks, and really appreciate the time today. This was a lot of fun, and wish you all the best. Thank you.

Jill James: Yeah, thank you. Thank you all for spending your time listening today, and more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good. May our employees, and those we influence know that our profession cares deeply about human well-being, which is the core of our practice. If you're not subscribed and want to hear past and future episodes, you can subscribe in any podcast player that you can find. We're on all of them, or if you prefer, you can read the transcript to any of the episodes and listen at HSI.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals. Special thanks today to Emily Gould, our podcast producer, and until next time, thanks for listening.